So if we were to be perfectly good then we wouldn't be human? We have to also have bad character traits in order to be human?
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Children and Religion
- Thread starter Truly Enlightened
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Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
Jos. The terms good and evil are relative terms. Therefore, we can never be perfectly good or perfectly evil. Anymore than there can be anything that is objectively moral, or anything that is an absolute. We can't even conceive of perfections or absolutes. These terms are simply irrelevant talking points, to advance and foundation any metaphysical narratives that relies on these terms. But the arguments always end as a gap-filling argument from ignorance.
We ARE the sum total of our own unique human condition. Our behavior and character traits are mainly the product of the genes and alleles we've inherited from the millions of bio-generations before us. This behavioral predisposition is set by our genes(nature). It is HOW these character and behavioral traits are expressed, that is NOT set(nurture).
Being human, includes all of our strengths and all of our weaknesses. Would we still be human, if we were not cognizant of our strengths and weaknesses? Would we still be human, if we were perfect, or less than perfect? Of course this argument is a mute argument. We are human because our genes identify/characterize us as humans. Be thankful that you become human, and not a slug. Perfection, has no relevance to being human. Perfection, simply does not exist in our reality, period.
But how can an individual be deemed to be human if they don't share the qualities of collective humanity such as greed, violence, hubris etc.?
But why are we so flawed and messed up? Shouldn't we be the least messed up species since, at least as far we are aware, the most sentient and intelligent?
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
Jos. There is no "human collective". Therefore, there are no "shared qualities" from this collective, period. Humans are not part of any "hive mentality" that controls our minds and actions. This is just science fiction. We are all individuals, created by the union of different genes from our parents. And, from the genes our parents inherited from their parents, and so on. We are all unique and different from each other, in our behaviors, thoughts, and our actions. Even in identical twins, behavior, thoughts, and actions are slightly different.
This statement is relative. To an infant, mommy is not messed up. To the patient, the doctor is not messed up. You are simply projecting and over analyzing the human condition. We are not flawed and messed up. We are just what we are supposed to be, HUMAN. Did you want to be some other species? Our flaws and weaknesses are what makes us human. Just how flawed and messed up do you think we are? Our sentiency was the natural consequence of our language development. But it is not crucial for our survival.
I would agree with that statement but I guess the other guy was referring to common traits that he has observed among most humans although some of those traits can also apply to other animal species as well.
Fair enough but it does feel to me like humanity is messed up though with all the wars and crimes and other atrocities and yes humans are capable of being or doing good as well but I think that as probably the most intelligent and sentient creature on the planet, we should be a lot more moral than we are.
I guess so but humans are capable of horrible evil like wars and killings and greed and I just don't like that, I hate those aspects of human nature. Also on the on hand, you said that we aren't flawed and messed up but then on another hand said that our flaws and weaknesses make us who we are, so which is it, are we flawed or not?
I think that as the most intelligent species we should be more moral than we are.
How is it not crucial when we need it to perceive and navigate the world around us?
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
Jos. My point was that there is NO collective Humanity that our common traits(greed, hubris, love, hate, intelligence, anger, etc.) come from. These traits are common to all lifeforms in the animal kingdom. If these traits were detrimental for human survival, they would no longer be expressed. Think about it. Let's say there were no genes for the trait for violence. This means that one person inheriting the earth, would depend on just one mutated gene. Without this gene, there would be no revolutions, social changes, and no need for individualism and free speech. Just complete obedience, and no one would be working. Like the relationship of the Eloi and the Morlocks in the "Time Machine". If There were no greed, there would be no Capitalism, no "free market system, and no competition between the trading of goods and services. No more consumer choice. Therefore, it is not just having these traits that define humans as good or evil. It is how they are expressed.
Jos, please understand. The vast and overwhelming majority of people like you and myself, are not directly responsible for these wars and other atrocities. But we are indirectly. They are committed by cowards in positions of power, that don't want to get their hands dirty, and want others to do their evil for them. It is our own complacency and apathy that these flawed people depend on. They will tell the vast majority of good people lies and half truths, to control how they think. They only care about protecting their own interests, and the interests of their masters. Soldier's lives become expendable, social issues are sacrificed, and the world is demonized. We simply allow this to happen, and complain about the outcome. If you don't like the actions of a few, then do something about it, like me. GET THEM OUT! Stop deflecting, and blaming nature, or everyone's lack of morality. Get involved, and like me, do everything you can to get the best person in office to save this planet from people like them. In my opinion there is only one candidate with the youth, integrity, gravitas, dignity, poise, authenticity, experience, honesty, and passion to do this. No other candidate comes even close. Unfortunately people are so complacent to the evils of our leaders, that when the solution is clearly right before their eyes, and the corporate media's allegiance is exposed, they still choose to ignore it. Even when the inconvenient truth is presented, they choose to ignore it as well. Maybe humans are destined to obliterate themselves, along with their pride. Maybe, when the bombs start dropping, and their loved ones start dying, and the war profiteers keep getting richer, maybe then will people begin to see the light/truth. Maybe.
I did not say that sentiency in humans was not necessary, I said that it was not crucial for survival. What I'm saying is that many sensory inputs never reach our consciousness state(reflex arcs, pain response, autonomic nervous system, sleep state). Does this mean that we are not still sentient? Many people are born without the use of many senses(sight, hearing, language), yet they survive by adapting to their environment. So, sentiency is certainly necessary but not crucial.
r2d2009
Member
Free e-book
Vladimir Antonov
Spiritual Work with Children
Edited by Vladimir Antonov,
Ph.D. (in biology)
This book is composed of articles by several authors, who worked in the scientific-spiritual School* of Vladimir Antonov. The main methodological advantage of this School is the development of its students as spiritual hearts, which allows them to walk the Straight Path — to realization of God’s Precepts, to spiritual Perfection. The methods of the School are presented as a sequence of steps: starting from most simple, basic — to more complex, advanced.
In this book the authors give methodological recommendations and modifications of the basic methods adapted to children and adolescents. The main priorities of this program are the following: laying the foundation for a spiritual attitude (that is based on love) towards other people and all living beings, developing the skills necessary for a healthy lifestyle, expanding the horizons and learning the basic ideas about the meaning of our lives on the Earth.
This book is intended for teachers working with children of different ages. It can be useful to parents as well.
Spiritual Work with Children
Vladimir Antonov
Spiritual Work with Children
Edited by Vladimir Antonov,
Ph.D. (in biology)
This book is composed of articles by several authors, who worked in the scientific-spiritual School* of Vladimir Antonov. The main methodological advantage of this School is the development of its students as spiritual hearts, which allows them to walk the Straight Path — to realization of God’s Precepts, to spiritual Perfection. The methods of the School are presented as a sequence of steps: starting from most simple, basic — to more complex, advanced.
In this book the authors give methodological recommendations and modifications of the basic methods adapted to children and adolescents. The main priorities of this program are the following: laying the foundation for a spiritual attitude (that is based on love) towards other people and all living beings, developing the skills necessary for a healthy lifestyle, expanding the horizons and learning the basic ideas about the meaning of our lives on the Earth.
This book is intended for teachers working with children of different ages. It can be useful to parents as well.
Spiritual Work with Children
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
What exactly is a "spiritual heart"? What does spiritual perfection look like? Do children have an informed choice before taking these steps towards perfection? Does developing a spiritual attitude equate more towards social conformity or more towards a child's individuality? Who determines the meaning of anyone's lives here on earth? Does "spiritual" include some belief system involving a culture-specific deity, or a spiritual way to behave? Other than ecclesiastic sounding platitudes, and an underlying spiritual elitism, why do children need spiritual assistance?
Parents should only, "GUIDE" or assist their child's social and behavioral development. Parents should be mature enough to see early signs of antisocial, and maladjusted behavioural patterns. And, be able to address them. In most cases, it is parents who are the cause of the child's antisocial behavior, directly or indirectly. Regardless of any underlying ideology(love, social harmony, elitism, control, or fear), it is not our place to encourage all children to think the same way about anything. Can't you see just how dangerous that would be? Nazi children were also taught a certain way of thinking and behaving. They also believed they were right and honorable. History showed they were wrong, and a child's life was wasted. Always be honest with your children, and keep the channels of communications open. Do not do the things that you don't want your children to do. But don't chastise them for doing them, without an explanation that they can understand. An explanation that doesn't demean their character. Teach them how to be responsible for their actions, and not blame it on failure to follow the rules(sequence of steps), from any spirituality, or entity. Children are unique humans. They should be the ones to decide what type of life they want to live. Will it be a physical, emotional, or social life of discovery? Or, will it be carrying the spiritual baggage of the beliefs of their parents, and other adults? A human life is not a spiritual life. It is a physical life, and a product of evolution. This should never be decided by the parents.
There are many things that a parent can do to help their children to assimilate into society, that don't include any form of spirituality disguised as Religion. The idea is to let children develop and learn at their own pace. Adults have the freedom "from" religions and beliefs. Children should have this same freedom. Maybe you can explain why teaching your spirituality is right, and the teaching of other spirituality is wrong?
Parents should only, "GUIDE" or assist their child's social and behavioral development. Parents should be mature enough to see early signs of antisocial, and maladjusted behavioural patterns. And, be able to address them. In most cases, it is parents who are the cause of the child's antisocial behavior, directly or indirectly. Regardless of any underlying ideology(love, social harmony, elitism, control, or fear), it is not our place to encourage all children to think the same way about anything. Can't you see just how dangerous that would be? Nazi children were also taught a certain way of thinking and behaving. They also believed they were right and honorable. History showed they were wrong, and a child's life was wasted. Always be honest with your children, and keep the channels of communications open. Do not do the things that you don't want your children to do. But don't chastise them for doing them, without an explanation that they can understand. An explanation that doesn't demean their character. Teach them how to be responsible for their actions, and not blame it on failure to follow the rules(sequence of steps), from any spirituality, or entity. Children are unique humans. They should be the ones to decide what type of life they want to live. Will it be a physical, emotional, or social life of discovery? Or, will it be carrying the spiritual baggage of the beliefs of their parents, and other adults? A human life is not a spiritual life. It is a physical life, and a product of evolution. This should never be decided by the parents.
There are many things that a parent can do to help their children to assimilate into society, that don't include any form of spirituality disguised as Religion. The idea is to let children develop and learn at their own pace. Adults have the freedom "from" religions and beliefs. Children should have this same freedom. Maybe you can explain why teaching your spirituality is right, and the teaching of other spirituality is wrong?
r2d2009
Member
The spiritual heart is the anahata chakra or the heart emotional center.
Hesychasts, for example, knew this very well.
Nazi children were taught hate
But I propose something completely opposite - to teach love.
You say so, as if modern society, media, churches, the street and other surroundings do not form anything in children.
What is being shoved into children is utter horror.
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
Since all human emotions are neurochemical, and genetic in their origin, what is the neurochemical, and genetic receptor origin in an emotional heart? Why is the heart the emotional center, and not the lungs, the brain, or the pancreas? I see no physical connection between the spiritual light, and a physical heart.
Nazi children were taught elitism and racial superiority, not hatred(although hatred was the outcome for some). I agree that the modern society place an important role in shaping the psyche of children. But as parents, we are entrusted to prepare our children how to face these real situations with real solutions. Not with metaphysical solution, that focus only on the individual, and not on social issues. Bottom line is, that children cannot avoid the society they live in.
My question again is, what makes your teachings better for children than the thousands of others? Surely they all can't be right. But they all certainly can be wrong. And, secondly why? These are your beliefs, not your children. Regardless of the steps taken to indoctrinate your children, it is still indoctrination. Telling a child not to go swimming in a river full of crocodiles, is different than telling a child not swim in the river because it is sacred. These are real reasons, that reflect real cause and effect.
Samana Johann
Restricted by request
Whether one is blessed or not... all an individual matter whether Highest blessings or not.
Even born under fools a wise could seek out for proper conditions, even born under Brahmans, the fool may take on the darkness.
Not out of reason is it said that families in which father and mother are honored by their children are with Brahma (God, gods, refuge).
Here some inspirations for ones children: Under the shade of my parent's love
As for the duties of children toward their parents, and their compassion in return:
“In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East:
(i) Having supported me I shall support them,
(ii) I shall do their duties,
(iii) I shall keep the family tradition,
(iv) I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance,
(v) furthermore I shall offer alms in honor of my departed relatives.
“In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:
(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iii) they train them for a profession,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage,
(v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.
“In these five ways do children minister to their parents as the East and the parents show their compassion to their children. Thus is the East covered by them and made safe and secure.
(i) Having supported me I shall support them,
(ii) I shall do their duties,
(iii) I shall keep the family tradition,
(iv) I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance,
(v) furthermore I shall offer alms in honor of my departed relatives.
“In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:
(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iii) they train them for a profession,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage,
(v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.
“In these five ways do children minister to their parents as the East and the parents show their compassion to their children. Thus is the East covered by them and made safe and secure.
r2d2009
Member
There really is no such connection.
But there is an arrangement of this emotional center.
You can call it the center of breathing - it is so felt.
The Nazis killed too many people in their attempt to realize the ideas of superiority.
Love does not imply superiority.
If society and the environment teach everything early, then why not teach something good?
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
If there is no connection, then a spiritual heart has no extrinsic worth to me. You do not have to be conscious to breathe, but you do have to be conscious to be emotional. I certainly agree that our breathing is affected by many states of emotions. As well being caused by many other variables, including a lack of oxygen. Emotions are not physical things, but their underlying causes certainly are. Where is this "spiritual heart" that is our emotional center? What is the physical nature of this center? Or, are you just being poetic, symbolic, and figurative?
I never implied or stated that love implies superiority. Do you think that if you love someone, that you are superior to that someone? This is the elitism that should NOT be conveyed to children.
I don't even want to know what any of this means. Again, how do you know that your religious teachings are GOOD, and other religious teachings are BAD? How do you know that by not teaching your children about the great Jooba in the sky, that you and your children will be damned? Therefore, I prefer to stick to things that I can demonstrate, with at least some degree of certainty. The rest, I can simply say that, "I just don't know.".
r2d2009
Member
The spiritual heart does not have a physical component.
But we have its effect on the emotional sphere.
This is a scientific fact.
The working methods of mental self-regulation and ancient methods of self-development are built on this.
Once again I say - this is a scientific fact, it is very easy to prove it to anyone except a complete skeptic.
I know this from experience with these methods.
All that a person can know in religion is either faith or personal experience.
In my case, this is experience.
That is, I do not believe in something, I was convinced of it myself, in practice.
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter what you believe in, or what you are convinced of. It only matters what evidence you can present, that can support whatever you are convinced of, or believe in. Oh, and this evidence must also convince me, in order to be objective. Otherwise, anyone can make up anything as being real, as long as they believe it, or are convinced of it. I think you can see what can happen, once we open this Pandora's Box?
Our emotions are genetically instilled through evolution. The origin(cause) of their expression is organic, and the expression(effect) is also organic. Anything that is mystical or spiritual, will have zero cause, and zero effect. You can stick a pin in a voodoo doll, but it will not cause pain to anyone. No matter how much you want to believe that it will. Unless of course, you can demonstrate just ONE example of anything that is metaphysical, supernatural, or spiritual. So whatever you choose to believe in, is subjective and irrelevant, unless there is objective evidence to support that belief.
There is no spiritual heart. There is only a physical heart, that function to maintain our physical homeostasis. It provides oxygen and nutrients to the cells. The heart is no more emotional, than the liver, the lungs, or the pancreas. In this reality, for every physical effect, there must be a physical cause. What is an emotional sphere? If a spiritual heart has a physical effect, then what is its physical cause? No cause, no effect. If a spiritual heart has no cause, then it can't have any effect. Therefore it cannot logically exist.
But faith does NOT require any logic at all. It only requires belief. So, if you think that belief and subjective experiences, represents a scientific fact, then you just don't understand what a scientific fact is.
Our emotions are genetically instilled through evolution. The origin(cause) of their expression is organic, and the expression(effect) is also organic. Anything that is mystical or spiritual, will have zero cause, and zero effect. You can stick a pin in a voodoo doll, but it will not cause pain to anyone. No matter how much you want to believe that it will. Unless of course, you can demonstrate just ONE example of anything that is metaphysical, supernatural, or spiritual. So whatever you choose to believe in, is subjective and irrelevant, unless there is objective evidence to support that belief.
There is no spiritual heart. There is only a physical heart, that function to maintain our physical homeostasis. It provides oxygen and nutrients to the cells. The heart is no more emotional, than the liver, the lungs, or the pancreas. In this reality, for every physical effect, there must be a physical cause. What is an emotional sphere? If a spiritual heart has a physical effect, then what is its physical cause? No cause, no effect. If a spiritual heart has no cause, then it can't have any effect. Therefore it cannot logically exist.
But faith does NOT require any logic at all. It only requires belief. So, if you think that belief and subjective experiences, represents a scientific fact, then you just don't understand what a scientific fact is.
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
Whether one is blessed or not... all an individual matter whether Highest blessings or not.
Even born under fools a wise could seek out for proper conditions, even born under Brahmans, the fool may take on the darkness.
Not out of reason is it said that families in which father and mother are honored by their children are with Brahma (God, gods, refuge).
Here some inspirations for ones children: Under the shade of my parent's love
As for the duties of children toward their parents, and their compassion in return:
“In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East:
(i) Having supported me I shall support them,
(ii) I shall do their duties,
(iii) I shall keep the family tradition,
(iv) I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance,
(v) furthermore I shall offer alms in honor of my departed relatives.
“In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:
(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iii) they train them for a profession,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage,
(v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.
“In these five ways do children minister to their parents as the East and the parents show their compassion to their children. Thus is the East covered by them and made safe and secure.
Lets start with a few facts about children,
CHILDREN ARE GENETICALLY HARDWIRED TO FOLLOW ADULTS, BY EVOLUTION
CHILDREN DID NOT ASK FOR YOU TO BRING THEM INTO THE WORLD.
THEY OWE YOU NOTHING
THEY ARE NOT MINI-ME'S
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR WELFARE AND WELLBEING, UNTIL THEY BECOME INDEPENDENT
THEY ARE NOT A VESSEL FOR RELIVING OUR YOUTH.
THEY ARE NOT SLAVES OR SERVANTS
THEY HAVE THEIR OWN LIVES TO LIVE, NOT YOURS
ALL CHILDREN ARE NOT THE SAME. THERE IS NO 5 RULES WILL FIT ALL
My children are a reflection of their upbringing. My children do not have to honour, or prove anything to me. My children will always be loved, respected, and never judged, whether they adhere to any list of ecclesiastic orders, rules, or expectations. What right does anyone have to tell their children who they should love, marry, and spend the rest of their lives with? That is the most selfish thing I have ever heard.
I want my children to respect and honour me, because THEY want to. Not because they have to, or are told that they have to. I prefer that they be genuine than disingenuous. But that's just me.
Samana Johann
Restricted by request
As told, even if parents are strongly confused, holding on wrong views, degenerated, children could leave the darkness they had chosen to become into if wise. Abstaining from following foolishness, i.e. harmful, releases from lower debts, householder.
"My children are not mine... I want them...", that's is what is meant by confused. What ever isn't under ones control, how could one say it's ones own. As not possible to control, yet attached, desire after it, one suffers.
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid that your religious indoctrinated parroted talking points, is just a collection of disjointed incoherent dogma to me. Is it YOUR beliefs that is the darkness children should leave, to come into the light(wise)? Is this the contrived, and unnecessary confusion, that you want to impart to your children? Try teaching them what I call, "the clarity of balance".
The entire Universe is based on balance. The more of one thing we do/use, the less of another thing we do/use. There are consequences to cause and effect. Both mentally and physically. Olympic athletes eventually pay the physical price for their sacrifices, in their latter years. This also applies to the reshaping of our plastic brain. Our wants, desires, needs, likes, dislikes, emotions, and fears, all make up the human condition. They all represent the genetically-installed(evolution) program, that make up the composite you. Changing, ignoring, modifying, or controlling any cognitive elements in the human condition, will eventually effect the whole. Just because you can deny, ignore, or abstain from your own conceptually-created social abstracts, does not mean that these conceptions will just disappear. Achieving the body's natural balance, does not take effort, it only takes awareness. For example, trying to quit smoking is very difficult. If you simply tell yourself that you WON'T ever smoke again, it will cause an imbalance in the mind due to its pleasure needs(addiction). But, if you tell yourself, that you can smoke anytime you want to, but CHOOSE not to, this will maintain balance in the mind. This will also allow for new learning to begin. Balance.
Remember, our natural wants, needs, emotions, and desires, are a part of our psyche for a reason. Nature tends to rid itself of unnecessary things that waste energy, or have no purpose. Humans will evolve naturally. Nature does not need any help from you.