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Child Sex Abuse And Atheists

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
So if atheists had organizations they would be sexually abusing children; however, doesn't this point up a real defect in the Christian religion: they're organized? So to stop child sex abuse among Christians the solution seems quite obvious: disband Christian organizations. They foster child sex abuse.

Organisational abuse, which is what you've linked to in your OP, BY DEFINITION requires organisations. That doesn't mean that a lack of organisations is a way to remove abuse.

Having said that, all organisations have their own cultures. I am completely broad-brushing here, but;

1) Older organisations which have strong 'traditions' can mean a lack of governance, since such concepts were less well-defined in the past.
2) Organisations which have traditionally placed their own authority (even be that a distant figure in Rome, for example) over secular authorities might see new laws and recommendations brought in to combat child sex abuse simply as interfering or something to be worked around. Their own laws and traditions are commonly seen as superior or superseding local secular laws.
3) Transparency would appear to be the key to have an organisation (religious or not) which can avoid the pitfalls of child sexual abuse. I have to jump through some hoops to volunteer coach my daughter's basketball team for that very reason. Religious exemptions, exclusivity or other 'special treatment' is completely unhelpful in that regard.

No point. As I told Landon Caeli; just an observation and a couple questions.

Fair enough. What's your view then?
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
So if atheists had organizations they would be sexually abusing children; however, doesn't this point up a real defect in the Christian religion: they're organized? So to stop child sex abuse among Christians the solution seems quite obvious: disband Christian organizations. They foster child sex abuse.

No point. As I told Landon Caeli; just an observation and a couple questions.

So do you really want to ban Christian charities that help children like the YMCA, the Salvation Army, Lutheran/Presbyterian/Baptist/Methodist Hospitals, Catholic Charities, etc and etc? ...:rolleyes:

...:)
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Organisational abuse, which is what you've linked to in your OP,
Most, yes, but not all.

That doesn't mean that a lack of organisations is a way to remove abuse.
But that's exactly what you implied when, in answer to my question,

"So what's your explanation for why atheists haven't succumbed to it?"

you said:

Absence of atheist organisations.

In other words, were it not for Christian organizations, the Christian religion, like atheism, would not have child sex abusers.

What's your view then?
Other than the Catholic religion, which I believe cultivates sexual frustration, and can act as a sanctuary and cover for sexually deviants, I'm not sure; however, I do see the Christian clergy as an attractive occupation for those with a less than wholesome interest in children. The clergy is infused with exceptional trust, which makes its close dealings with children go unquestioned. This, plus, in the eyes of children, and many adults, the clergy is an authority figure to be obeyed.

.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
So do you really want to ban Christian charities that help children like the YMCA, the Salvation Army, Lutheran/Presbyterian/Baptist/Methodist Hospitals, Catholic Charities, etc and etc? ...:rolleyes:
Absolutely! Ban 'em all, take their money and equipment, and then burn their buildings to the ground. Muuahahaha!

.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
"Pedophilia (the sexual abuse of a prepubescent child) among priests is extremely rare, affecting only 0.3% of the entire population of clergy. This figure, cited in the book Pedophiles and Priests by non-Catholic scholar, Philip Jenkins, is from the most comprehensive study to date, which found that only one out of 2,252 priests considered over a thirty-year period was afflicted with pedophilia."

9 Myths about Priestly Pedophilia

"And a major 2004 study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education found that nearly 10 percent of U.S. public school students reported having been targeted with sexual attention by school employees."

Sexual harassment in education in the United States - Wikipedia

The rate of sexual abuse done to children by priests is lower than the rate of sexual abuse done to children by non-priests. I've made Skwim aware of these statistics, but Skwim is not one who let's the facts get in the way of his smear campaigns against the Church.
That's not even comparing the same thing. The number of pedophile priests can't really be compared to the number of victims in the school. To make an accurate comparison, we'd need either how many victims pedophile priests have had, or how many pedophile school faculty members there are, and then we'd have to adjust the numbers as there are far fewer Catholics than there are public school students.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
That's not even comparing the same thing. The number of pedophile priests can't really be compared to the number of victims in the school. To make an accurate comparison, we'd need either how many victims pedophile priests have had, or how many pedophile school faculty members there are, and then we'd have to adjust the numbers as there are far fewer Catholics than there are public school students.

According to a 2004 research study by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 4,392 Catholic priests and deacons in active ministry between 1950 and 2002 have been plausibly (neither withdrawn nor disproven) accused of under-age sexual abuse by 10,667 individuals.

There are an estimated 51 million adult American Catholics,

7 facts about U.S. Catholics

Nearly ninety percent of all adult American Catholics now were children between 1950 to 2002.

https://cara.georgetown.edu/staff/webpages/Catholic Families Demographics.pdf

**Edited** So then approximately 46 million of them were potential victims of child abuse by a Priest. 10,667 alleged victims out of 46 million potential victims means that less than one out of every four thousand Catholic children were sexually harassed by Priests, this compare to nearly one out of nearly ten public school students having been harassed by an public school educator. **Edited** So then, a Catholic child is nearly 400 times less likely to have been sexually harassed by a Priest than a public school student is to be sexually harassed by a public school teacher or administrator.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
According to a 2004 research study by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 4,392 Catholic priests and deacons in active ministry between 1950 and 2002 have been plausibly (neither withdrawn nor disproven) accused of under-age sexual abuse by 10,667 individuals.
Now we need the total of Catholic children so it can be compared to how many public school students there are and how many students have been victims of sexual abuse.
It would also help to have the number of Catholic officials to compare to school faculty.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
If not, how do you explain such a lopsided difference?

.
I don't explain it, it is disgusting and of all crimes these abuses against children make me glad these wolves in sheep's clothing will face the harshest judgment ( Matt. 18:6). I am sorry for the children who have endured the abuse, but glad their abusers are being exposed. Maybe God is getting tired of the double standard and hypocrisy in so many churches and groups which claim His name.

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Where is it?

Our news is full of Christian leaders and their followers sexually abusing children, and in great numbers. But as far as I can tell nary a bit news about atheists or agnostics sexually abusing children.

"Investigation Reveals Rampant Sexual Abuse in Southern Baptist Churches"
source

"Pope Francis Admits Priests Sexually Abuse Women, Held Them as Slaves"
source

"Get Shortey (Again): Christian Lawmaker Has to Pay $125K To His Teen Sex Victim"
source

"Texas Catholic Dioceses Disclose 286 Priests Credibly Accused of Child Sex Abuse"
source

"Guy Who Handled Sex Abuse Cases for Vatican Quits After Allegations of Sex Abuse"
source

"Cardinal Claims He “Forgot” That He Knew About a Priest Abusing Kids"

source

"French Cardinal Could Face 3 Years for Failing to Report Abusive Priest"

source

"This is How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Covered Up Abuse by an Elder"

source

"Ex-Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick Accused of Groping Child During Confession"

source

"Two Gonzaga Admins Resign in Wake of Reports About Predatory Priests on Campus"

source

"Boise Priest Gets 25 Years For Child Porn; Liked Watching a Boy Beaten to Death"
source

"The Catholic Church in Illinois Didn’t Disclose Allegations Against 500+ Priests"
source

Could it be that, for whatever reason, the Christian religion either attracts child sex abusers or turns people into them?

If not, how do you explain such a lopsided difference?

.
The first thing that came to my mind was the overwhelming majority of children sexually abused were preyed upon by people they knew well.

Since many churches have some very close-knit communities, where adults are left in charge of other's children, it could be a ripe situation for predators.

Perhaps atheists tend not to participate in such gatherings or don't ever trust their children with strangers, hoping that their shared belief will protect them?

I also don't think "atheist" is a news-worthy description.

How many cases of molestation are done by people where no religious affiliation is mentioned?
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Where is it?

Our news is full of Christian leaders and their followers sexually abusing children, and in great numbers. But as far as I can tell nary a bit news about atheists or agnostics sexually abusing children.

"Investigation Reveals Rampant Sexual Abuse in Southern Baptist Churches"
source

"Pope Francis Admits Priests Sexually Abuse Women, Held Them as Slaves"
source

"Get Shortey (Again): Christian Lawmaker Has to Pay $125K To His Teen Sex Victim"
source

"Texas Catholic Dioceses Disclose 286 Priests Credibly Accused of Child Sex Abuse"
source

"Guy Who Handled Sex Abuse Cases for Vatican Quits After Allegations of Sex Abuse"
source

"Cardinal Claims He “Forgot” That He Knew About a Priest Abusing Kids"

source

"French Cardinal Could Face 3 Years for Failing to Report Abusive Priest"

source

"This is How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Covered Up Abuse by an Elder"

source

"Ex-Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick Accused of Groping Child During Confession"

source

"Two Gonzaga Admins Resign in Wake of Reports About Predatory Priests on Campus"

source

"Boise Priest Gets 25 Years For Child Porn; Liked Watching a Boy Beaten to Death"
source

"The Catholic Church in Illinois Didn’t Disclose Allegations Against 500+ Priests"
source

Could it be that, for whatever reason, the Christian religion either attracts child sex abusers or turns people into them?

If not, how do you explain such a lopsided difference?

.
Isn't that interesting. I think the ranty ones are most dangerous.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Now we need the total of Catholic children so it can be compared to how many public school students there are and how many students have been victims of sexual abuse.
It would also help to have the number of Catholic officials to compare to school faculty.

The statistics do indicate a Catholic child is nearly 400 times less likely to have been sexually harassed by a Priest than the likelihood a public school student has been sexually harassed by a public school teacher or administrator.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
Where is it?

Our news is full of Christian leaders and their followers sexually abusing children, and in great numbers. But as far as I can tell nary a bit news about atheists or agnostics sexually abusing children.

"Investigation Reveals Rampant Sexual Abuse in Southern Baptist Churches"
source

"Pope Francis Admits Priests Sexually Abuse Women, Held Them as Slaves"
source

"Get Shortey (Again): Christian Lawmaker Has to Pay $125K To His Teen Sex Victim"
source

"Texas Catholic Dioceses Disclose 286 Priests Credibly Accused of Child Sex Abuse"
source

"Guy Who Handled Sex Abuse Cases for Vatican Quits After Allegations of Sex Abuse"
source

"Cardinal Claims He “Forgot” That He Knew About a Priest Abusing Kids"

source

"French Cardinal Could Face 3 Years for Failing to Report Abusive Priest"

source

"This is How the Jehovah’s Witnesses Covered Up Abuse by an Elder"

source

"Ex-Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick Accused of Groping Child During Confession"

source

"Two Gonzaga Admins Resign in Wake of Reports About Predatory Priests on Campus"

source

"Boise Priest Gets 25 Years For Child Porn; Liked Watching a Boy Beaten to Death"
source

"The Catholic Church in Illinois Didn’t Disclose Allegations Against 500+ Priests"
source

Could it be that, for whatever reason, the Christian religion either attracts child sex abusers or turns people into them?
Neither.
I just posted facts to show that here.

If not, how do you explain such a lopsided difference?

.
People commit crimes, and atrocities, as long as they feel they can get away with it. Atheist are not exempt.
Atheist do not necessarily have an organization. Nor do they walk around with a tattoo or tee-shirt marked "Atheist", so when someone is caught in the act of child sexual abuse, the media is not going to publish - "Atheist rapes girls over a 10 year period", but we can be sure that some Atheist are child sex perverts.
In fact, I don't think most people think that people in the kiddie porn business are anything but godly.

Often, when we see articles like this...
13 Investigates: Children forced into prostitution
Children forced into prostitution by their own parents

They do not say whether the perpetrators are Christian, pr Atheist.
One thing is certain - people did it.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
But that's exactly what you implied when, in answer to my question,

"So what's your explanation for why atheists haven't succumbed to it?"

you said:

Absence of atheist organisations.

In other words, were it not for Christian organizations, the Christian religion, like atheism, would not have child sex abusers.

Okay, I see what you mean. Actually, my meaning was more literal than that. I can be pedantic with words, so I apologise on the confusion. To clarify...

Abuse occurs. If we got rid of all organisations, it would still occur. However, organisational abuse would no longer occur. No organisations, no organisational abuse.

So, due to the lack of atheist organisations, you don't get instances of atheist organisational abuse. Further, where there are atheist organisations, these are likely to be both smaller and more modern in nature which perhaps provides SOME help in avoiding organisational abuse, per my other post.

Get rid of Christian organisations, no more Christian organisational abuse. But you'd still have Christians abusing. Just like there are atheists abusing.

Now that is not to say it's all equal. Rather (as I mentioned in a different post) organisations which lack transparency, don't abide by secular laws which have improved in the areas of child abuse, and more generally have no strictly held themselves to account are havens for pedophiles.

Other than the Catholic religion, which I believe cultivates sexual frustration, and can act as a sanctuary and cover for sexually deviants, I'm not sure; however, I do see the Christian clergy as an attractive occupation for those with a less than wholesome interest in children. The clergy is infused with exceptional trust, which makes its close dealings with children go unquestioned. This, plus, in the eyes of children, and many adults, the clergy is an authority figure to be obeyed.

.

Cool, thanks for that. What you say makes sense to me. I used to be a primary school teacher, and there was considerable change in reporting and oversight right around the time I left school through to when I left teaching (a period of about ten years). Whilst as a male it could occasionally feel like you were being unfairly scrutinized, I think it was more just the change which was jarring. The scrutiny itself and the place we ended up in actually made perfect sense.

Inviting that sort of scrutiny into an organisation which is predominantly male run might also be something to consider. There might be a higher level of indignity or resistance to scrutiny and transparency which initially (at least) can make you feel like you've done something wrong.

Meh...I'm overstating that a little. Cant quite think how to word it. Just that commonly (and I notice it here plenty) people are a little quicker to harshly judge other groups than their own.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Our news is full of Christian leaders and their followers sexually abusing children, and in great numbers. But as far as I can tell nary a bit news about atheists or agnostics sexually abusing children.
False comparison. You are leaving out many secular organizations such as public schools, universities, police, various other government officials and international organizations. The UN seems like one to be included.

Could it be that, for whatever reason, the Christian religion either attracts child sex abusers or turns people into them?
They are indeed attracted to situations where people are vulnerable including churches but also including the foster care system, the prison system, the military etc.

All of the organizations have something in common which is that they seem safe for vulnerable people, and that attracts sexual predators.

As for turning people into sexual predators, possibly. Do you have a theory for what might cause that, or are you just poking fun? Tell me yours, and I'll tell you mine.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Additionally, most child sexual abuse cases tend to occur either at home, or in the institutes I mentioned - Law Enforcement premises; School Institutes; Medical practitioners' premises; Care-giving facilities.

For Atheist, it at home, or in their "Playboy Playhouse".
In 2005, Denmark was ranked the third most atheistic country in the world and the website adherents.com reported that in 2005 43 - 80% of Danes are agnostics/atheists/non-believers in God. Denmark has the highest rate of belief in evolution in the Western World.

The 2003 book entitled Overcoming Violence Against Women and Girls: The International Campaign to Eradicate a Worldwide Problem written by authors Rahel Nardos; Mary K. Radpour; William S. Hatcher and Michael L. Penn, declared:

“The largest source of commercial child pornography is Denmark. Denmark became the world's leading producer of child pornography when, in 1969, it removed all restrictions on the production and sale of any type of pornographic material..."

New report from the United Nations says Denmark should do more to protect children [ not sexual ]

A critical review of available data on sexual abuse of children in Denmark
title = "A critical review of available data on sexual abuse of children in Denmark",
abstract = "Objective To describe different data sources that may illuminate the incidence and character of child sexual abuse (CSA) in Denmark in the late 1990s. Method:Data concerning alleged sexual abuse of children below 15 years of age in the 1990s were retrieved from the Danish National Patient Register and the Danish National Criminal Register. In addition, all police files concerning reported CSA in 1 year (1998), were reviewed. Results:The average annual incidence of CSA was .06 per 1,000 children, based on data in the National Patient Register; however, it was .5 per 1,000 based on data in the Criminal Register. In the Criminal Register, significant annual differences were found in cases of sexual offence against children below 12 years. The police reports comprised very comprehensive information about the victims and the character of CSA. Based on this information the incidence of police reported CSA in 1998 was 1.0 per 1,000 children, and .6 per 1,000 excluding reported cases of indecent exposure. Half of intra-familial CSA resulted in a conviction compared to 40{\%} of extra-familial CSA and 16{\%} of indecent exposure. Conclusions:In Denmark, criminal statistics contain the most systematic collection of data on CSA. However, data reflect the reporting behavior by parents or other closely related adults, which may be influenced by changes in public awareness of the problem.

American Atheists, one of the most combative organizations dedicated to the promotion of secularism, has terminated its highly visible president, David Silverman, over allegations of financial and sexual misconduct.
Leading atheist, accused of sexual misconduct, speaks out

Children at-risk: child abuse in Denmark
Abstract
In Denmark there have been few case reports on child abuse, but only one epidemiological study conducted in 1969. We have therefore initiated a number of countrywide studies by contacting all pediatric departments, Institutes of Forensic Medicine and the public health officers in Denmark. The present study describes the findings from the city of Copenhagen during 1970-79. Only 27 children, mostly under seven years of age, were registered. Information on pregnancy, delivery, neonatal period and the children's former development provided significant findings. All the registered families belonged to the lowest social class, half of the children had a history of previous abuse, one third of siblings had also previously been abused and one third of the wives were "battered wives". In 2/3 of the cases the father-figure was the perpetrator. The study showed an urgent need for a more coherent policy on child abuse and child welfare, general guidelines on interdisciplinary work, communication, prevention, community work and follow-up. Practical guidelines for involvement with child abuse are proposed and it is recommended to establish child abuse teams in Denmark, also in order to deal with prevention at the pre- and postnatal level. The pediatric departments should get more involved with community and social work in order to deal with child abuse and neglect at an early stage, where the abuse can be prevented.

As I said though, it's people, so I am not doing finger pointing. Just evening out the so called lopsided difference.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I'm sure that atheists are not immune from sexual abuse/misdemeanors - David Silverman and Lawrence Krauss come to mind - I think the big differences are...
  • Atheists do not claim the high moral ground
  • Atheists do not get hung up about sex
  • Atheists are quick to out and condemn any offenders within their ranks - too many churches try to cover issues up.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Where is it?.

My first laugh of the morning, Skwim.... :D

Maybe you only see what you want to see?

Here you go, just a taster..........

Sexual Abuse in Sports: The Problem No One Wants To Talk About ...
https://www.momsteam.com/sexual-abuse-in-sports-the-problem-no-one-wants-to-talk...
While reliable statistics are not available, what data there is indicates that sexual harassment and abuse by authority figures in sports is widespread, especially ...
---------------------------------
Lily Allen says music industry is 'rife with sex abuse' | Ents & Arts News ...
https://news.sky.com/.../lily-allen-says-music-industry-is-rife-with-sex-abuse-1149814...
15 Sep 2018 - Lily Allen has said the music industry is "rife" with sexual abuse but insiders refuse to speak up. The singer made the remark as she revealed ...
----------------------------------
These are the industries with the most reported sexual harassment ...
https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/21/.../sexual-harassment-industry-service-reta...
21 Nov 2017 - Allegations of sexual misconduct in Hollywood, the media, and on ... The retail industry accounted for an additional 13.4 percent of claims.
---------------------------------
Workplace harassment - Wikipedia
Workplace harassment - Wikipedia
Workplace harassment is the belittling or threatening behavior directed at an individual worker ... Physical abuse refers to sexual assault and violence on body, while emotional abuse refers to imposing stress and bullying. .... In addition, "more than 97% of nurse managers reported experiencing abuse, whereas 60% of retail ...
------------------------------
Child sexual abuse in custodial institutions - Independent Inquiry into ...
https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key.../child-sexual-abuse-custodial-institutions-rea-full-report.p...
1 Mar 2018 - 81. 7.2 Institutional response to child sexual abuse prior to custody. 83. 7.3 Assessment and treatment of juvenile sex offenders. 84. 7.4 Social ...
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I'm sure that atheists are not immune from sexual abuse/misdemeanors - David Silverman and Lawrence Krauss come to mind - I think the big differences are...
  • Atheists do not claim the high moral ground
  • Atheists do not get hung up about sex
  • Atheists are quick to out and condemn any offenders within their ranks - too many churches try to cover issues up.
So you are not supporting the OP, or dealing with the topic then. Cool.

1. Yes they do.
2. Sex with children... Yes they do. Are you speaking for self?
3. Not if they are pedophiles, or rapist, or law breakers... they don't .

You sound as though you are speaking about saints, but they are in the "church".
I am not sure if you are speaking for self, but no, the data dues not show that they are any different.
Communities of people - depending on who is involved - whether Atheist or Christian are quick to out and condemn any offenders within their ranks.

There is no one sided show here.
All communities have their share of bad apples, and all have their share of holding back from the law - whatever the reason.

AFAIK
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
So you are not supporting the OP, or dealing with the topic then. Cool.

1. Yes they do.
2. Sex with children... Yes they do. Are you speaking for self?
3. Not if they are pedophiles, or rapist, or law breakers... they don't .

You sound as though you are speaking about saints, but they are in the "church".
I am not sure if you are speaking for self, but no, the data dues not show that they are any different.
Communities of people - depending on who is involved - whether Atheist or Christian are quick to out and condemn any offenders within their ranks.

There is no one sided show here.
All communities have their share of bad apples, and all have their share of holding back from the law - whatever the reason.

AFAIK
The OP did not take sides, he threw a statement out and asked for comments.And yes, I do not believe atheists are saints but I gave 3 reason why I thought they were better and not hypocritical.
1. I disagree that atheists claim the moral high ground, we are no better or worse than others. It is religions that claim the high ground.
2. Hang on, when I said we don't get hung up about sex; I wasn't condoning sex with children, rape and the likes. I was just stating that the likes of homosexuality, sex outside of marriage and the likes that many religions struggle with are non-issues.
3. Sorry they do try to cover up and protect their church, look at the Catholic Church's cover up.in Boston as just one of many examples. They try to keep it 'in-house' and punish the perpetrators with prayer or move them to another parish where they can offend again.

Look at the speed with which Krauss and Silverman were outed when compared to the pedophilia cover ups by various churches.
 
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