Child marriages - Does the Quran promote it?

[Ellen Brown]

Just picked the first one in the Google search. Or maybe it was the second...don't remember. The poster said it wasn't an islamic issue......the article indicates otherwise. Why does it matter which state it is? Are you going to say that they aren't "real Muslims"?

Oh, give it a rest. They are the ones who sheltered Bin Laden. There is more. Have you read about the girls taken to Pakistan by parents to marry someone they choose? If they refuse, do you know what happens to them? I have seen several that I'd known online just disappear when they went to Pakistan...

 

[Milton Platt]

Oh, give it a rest. They are the ones who sheltered Bin Laden. There is more. Have you read about the girls taken to Pakistan by parents to marry someone they choose? If they refuse, do you know what happens to them? I have seen several that I'd known online just disappear when they went to Pakistan...

Right...but are they Muslims who are in favor of child marriage?

Also.......
In Sudan, girls can marry at 10 and boys can marry at 15 or at puberty.

Sometimes the marriage age depends on religious affiliation. In the Philippines, Muslim boys can marry at 15 and Muslim girls can marry at puberty.

In Tanzania, Muslim and Hindu girls can marry at 12 as long as the marriage is not consummated until the girl reaches the age of 15.

 

[firedragon]

Right...but are they Muslims who are in favor of child marriage?

Also.......
In Sudan, girls can marry at 10 and boys can marry at 15 or at puberty.

Sometimes the marriage age depends on religious affiliation. In the Philippines, Muslim boys can marry at 15 and Muslim girls can marry at puberty.

In Tanzania, Muslim and Hindu girls can marry at 12 as long as the marriage is not consummated until the girl reaches the age of 15.

You must understand a simple thing. There is a big difference between what people do and the book.

This is irrelevant to the opening post. You should understand that.

 

[Milton Platt]

You must understand a simple thing. There is a big difference between what people do and the book.

This is irrelevant to the opening post. You should understand that.

Very possible. I can concede that. With what do Muslims justify child marriage, then?

 

[firedragon]

Very possible. I can concede that. With what do Muslims justify child marriage, then?

Anyone who wishes women to be subdued. Anyone who wants dominion over the female sex. The egoistic males.

They will find any reason under the sun.

 

[Milton Platt]

You must understand a simple thing. There is a big difference between what people do and the book.

This is irrelevant to the opening post. You should understand that.

That is true. But only slightly so. Isn't it more important what people do than what their book says they should do?

 

[firedragon]

That is true. But only slightly so. Isn't it more important what people do than what their book says they should do?

Not in a discussion on what the book says.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well. You dont know the documents then. Thats why you believe these whatever stories you picked up because you just "like it".

Do you believe them because they are historical fact? Or do you believe them because you like it?

If you believe they are historical fact, can you give reasons why they are historical fact (Not that you just love the person who told the story). Why is it 100% historical fact? Whats the Sanad. Why is it superior to Atthabari, and other sources that easily prove Aisha was at least 18 or 19? Why do you believe this, but not that?

So what are your evidences and scientific explanations?

It is not a matter of scientific proof. It is a matter of historical proof. There is zero historical documentation for the idea that she was for example 18. There is only one document and it is the one I cited, the hadith. You can go back, and I entered a post that gave the actual citation to the hadith, and the muslim website on which I found it.

I also made the argument that whether this record is accurate or not, it is what Muslims accept as true, thus it is certainly the source of their cultural ethic, which is the acceptance of child brides, at least by some.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Not all sources agree with that assessment. Modern thinking is that she was around 18.

I doubt that. I think its when she got breasts , hence the onset of puberty, she was considered "ripe" to consummate the marriage.

I'm thinking maybe 12 to 14.

 

[firedragon]

There is zero historical documentation for the idea that she was for example 18.

You are absolutely wrong. Absolutely.

And irrelevant to the OP.

 

[firedragon]

I doubt that. I think its when she got breasts , hence the onset of puberty, she was considered "ripe" to consummate the marriage.

I'm thinking maybe 12 to 14.

Brother. What you know is what has been made famous. Because this is what's interesting. See yourself insisting on this without even giving one single analysis of other historical sources. That is shutting yourself down to analysis.

Aisha and her marriage is not relevant to the OP. It is about the Quran. But yet Aisha will be thrown in because its an aching. Think a bit, how sure are you that this particular Hadith about Aisha is historical fact? Simply because its a Muslim source? Is that all you are banking on for your conviction that "its a muslim source"? Do you know the dating of the book that you are referring to?

Nevertheless, I would suggest that you open yourself to analysis. Have you read the book that means "Fine tuning" when translated into English? Have you read the Atthabari's narration about Asma, who is Aishas sister who is supposedly 10 years older than Aisha?

This is very old scholarship brother. So you should analyse it.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Brother. What you know is what has been made famous. Because this is what's interesting. See yourself insisting on this without even giving one single analysis of other historical sources. That is shutting yourself down to analysis.

Aisha and her marriage is not relevant to the OP. It is about the Quran. But yet Aisha will be thrown in because its an aching. Think a bit, how sure are you that this particular Hadith about Aisha is historical fact? Simply because its a Muslim source? Is that all you are banking on for your conviction that "its a muslim source"? Do you know the dating of the book that you are referring to?

Nevertheless, I would suggest that you open yourself to analysis. Have you read the book that means "Fine tuning" when translated into English? Have you read the Atthabari's narration about Asma, who is Aishas sister who is supposedly 10 years older than Aisha?

This is very old scholarship brother. So you should analyse it.

What was the standard age of consent/womanhood in the ancient world? One thing for sure , it was a lot younger than 18 if the historical record is accurate.

 

[firedragon]

Right...but are they Muslims who are in favor of child marriage?

Also.......
In Sudan, girls can marry at 10 and boys can marry at 15 or at puberty.

Sometimes the marriage age depends on religious affiliation. In the Philippines, Muslim boys can marry at 15 and Muslim girls can marry at puberty.

In Tanzania, Muslim and Hindu girls can marry at 12 as long as the marriage is not consummated until the girl reaches the age of 15.

If Muslims are doing it, they are against the Quran. The whole point of the OP.

 

[firedragon]

What was the standard age of consent/womanhood in the ancient world? One thing for sure , it was a lot younger than 18 if the historical record is accurate.

Oh that deserves a big research brother. And I believe this age thing goes up and down.

But my point is not about how societies have been behaving. It is about how they "should behave" based on what the Quran says. The OP is about what the Quran and what it says about child marriage.

 

[Milton Platt]

If Muslims are doing it, they are against the Quran. The whole point of the OP.

I get that. I tend to be more concerned about what a given group of people are actually doing rather than what they are supposedly supposed to do.

 

[firedragon]

I get that. I tend to be more concerned about what a given group of people are actually doing rather than what they are supposedly supposed to do.

Thats very good. Just not relevant to the post. But thanks.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You are absolutely wrong. Absolutely.

And irrelevant to the OP.

REally? Supply the original source documentation stating that she was 18. Go ahead, it should be easy since I am absolutely wrong.

 

[firedragon]

REally? Supply the original source documentation stating that she was 18. Go ahead, it should be easy since I am absolutely wrong.

1. Asma, the sister of Aisha was ten years older. - (Atthabari, Al Hajar, Ibn Kathir, etc).

2. And it also says that Asma was 100 years old when she died, and it was the 73 Hijra. - (Tahdheeb aththahdheeb, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Hajar)

3. That means obviously 100-73 = 27. So at the time of Hijri, Asma was 27 years old.

5. So it is only simple mathematics to understand that Aisha was 17 years old at the time of Hijra.

6. So this marriage which would have been taken place in the 1st or 2nd Hijra makes Aisha 18 or 19.

7. If you look at the hadith Aisha is referred to as Bikr, Not Jariah. Which means a woman of adult age, not a childhood or early teen age which is Jariah.

Edit: There you go. The evidence you required. Yet, I must tell you you are hellbent on being irrelevant to the OP.

Peace.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

1. Asma, the sister of Aisha was ten years older. - (Atthabari, Al Hajar, Ibn Kathir, etc).

2. And it also says that Asma was 100 years old when she died, and it was the 73 Hijra. - (Tahdheeb aththahdheeb, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Hajar)

3. That means obviously 100-73 = 27. So at the time of Hijri, Asma was 27 years old.

5. So it is only simple mathematics to understand that Aisha was 17 years old at the time of Hijra.

6. So this marriage which would have been taken place in the 1st or 2nd Hijra makes Aisha 18 or 19.

7. If you look at the hadith Aisha is referred to as Bikr, Not Jariah. Which means a woman of adult age, not a childhood or early teen age which is Jariah.

Peace.

So, nothing that actually says Aisha was 18. You have to do all sorts of math to "figure it out."

 

[firedragon]

So, nothing that actually says Aisha was 18. You have to do all sorts of math to "figure it out."

Of course. I am not in love with that particular hadith you quote like you are. And people do research, not fall in love and stick to one small piece of information you found somewhere like its an everlasting marriage.