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Featured Child marriages - Does the Quran promote it?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Aug 26, 2019.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    A child cannot be married off.

    I write this because I have seen many speak of Islam, Quran and child marriages. I know that the internet is full of lists if you search for what you need as tools to slander another theology. There are all kinds of lists. But have you studied it? That’s the question.

    What does the Quran say? Please follow this and understand the logical representation of this subject.

    1. You can only give inheritance to a mature person.

    And do not give the immature ones your money for which God has made you overseers, and spend on them from it and clothe them, and speak to them in goodness. – Quran 4:5

    Immaturity is described by the Arabic word Shufaha. Which the child is yet not ready to take up responsibility of managing his or her finances. This is speaking of an orphan under your care but yet it defines when a child can inherit, an age where s/he is mature enough to manage it.

    2. So when do you test the child for maturity?

    Quran calls it Balaghul Nikaha.

    And test the orphans when they reach age of marriage, then, if you have determined from them comprehension/maturity/age of marriage, then give them their money, - Excerpt – Quran 4:6

    So maturity, the age of marriage is tied to your ability to manage your own finances and inheritance.

    3. Rushdan, in 4:6 means sound judgement. Thus, the age of marriage is also defined by sound judgement.

    So there are easily four criteria for the age of marriage.

    1. Not Shufaha or immature, childish.

    2. Balaghul Nikaha or the age of marriage which synonymous in classical Arabic to maturity.

    3. Sound judgement.

    4. Mature enough to inherit their wealth and manage their finances.

    What age do you think a girl can fit into this criterion? 9? 12? 19? 20?

    Another reference to maturity is full physical growth as in Quran 40:67 where Ashaddakum from the root Shadad means full physical growth. So you must know when your child is full grown.

    I have seen many silly arguments of people pick only one of these points to make their case which is pretty childish. For example, one person asks “So you decided you can marry off your daughter because she reached full growth at the age of 12?”. Well you cherry picked. Above I have given four criteria as well.

    Another verse many have used taken off the internet is Quran chapter 65 verse 4. I say this before anyone brings this out with all due respect. Let me give an old translation so that its not modern scholarship.

    Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the

    prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses [it is the same]: for those who carry [life within their wombs], their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. – Quran 65:4

    There are some translations which would say “Not yet menstruated” instead of “No courses”.

    I wish to dissect this verse so that everyone could understand. Googling things like “child marriage in Quran or Islam” will lead you to famous websites. Most of the famous websites are bias. And this statement invites the question “Arent you bias”.

    Well maybe. But you could question the logic. Take a holistic approach. Not just one cherry picked verse that suits your personal sentiment. This verse is speaking of women who go through a divorce where it stipulates certain conditions before the lady is to leave the premises where they had their marital life. So please understand that first, you are married because you are already fully grown, mature enough to manage your finances, balaghul nikaha and so forth. You are already married meeting these criterias and now you are going through a divorce.

    Chapter 65 verse 4

    1. Premise: In case of divorce

    2. Wa allathi ya ishna minal maheedhi. Those who are done with their menstruation. Which means Ya Ishna, your menstruations are over. This is menopause. For them, at the time of a divorce their interim period is three months.

    3. Wa allathi yaa hidhna means the ones who have not menstruated. Now this is the verse a lot of people use to insult the whole system of islam. But it’s a cheap trick. You will understand why.

    It does not say “Never menstruated” and in classical Arabic this could never ever mean one who has not achieved puberty. It is completely illogical. As a non-muslim you could use this this maliciously to insult but also as a Muslim you could use this for your perverted intentions. But none of this is logical if take the context of the Quran and you should see that its illogical.

    Mate, brother, sister or whoever you are please take a listen. You are talking of a girl who is already married because she has reached the right ripe age of marriage. Balagul nikaha. Now she is going through a divorce. And now she cannot be thrown out of where she is living for three months. Both, those who don’t get periods and those who have not got their periods yet after marriage whoever they are cannot be sent out of their abode for 3 months AFTER THE DIVORCE IS CONFIRMED.

    4. Hamal or pregnant women if you find them to be must be allowed fully to stay in the same premises until the delivery.

    So this is all about a divorce and pregnancy. These are laws set for all times.

    So if you think logically, all these evangelists who speak of child marriage in the Quran and all those lists you find in the internet are duping you. You are hoodwinked.

    Peace.
     
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  2. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    Child marriage in Niger is a cultural issue, not an Islamic one

    "Early and forced marriage is a contentious subject in Niger. The country has signed up to international treaties that set a minimum age of marriage of 18. However, the legal age of marriage is 15 for girls and 18 for boys. There have been ongoing discussions in parliament to make sure that the national law respects the international treaties, but this has not yet happened.

    Even if the law changes, it is unlikely that child marriage will stop overnight. It is entrenched in the culture in Niger. I want to be clear on this: this is not an Islamic issue, but a cultural issue."

    Source:Child marriage in Niger is a cultural issue, not an Islamic one
     
  3. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    There are many whose research is not good. How often have I seen accusations of Muhammad PBUH about his marriage to Aisha. Sadly these people attack without knowing all the facts.
     
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  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    See sis. Its the shallow exploration of a quick google search. Even according to the most traditional, Hadith based islamic teachings it is evident that Aisha was at least 18 or 19. But even that is not according to the Quran. Most don't have any depth in this subject. Peace.
     
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  5. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Muhammed married Aisha when she was six, and began having sex with her when she was nine. The founder of the religion is the model for all of Islam to follow. Reach your own conclusions.
     
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Whats your evidence to your statements? Evidence is what you, I mean "YOU" are personally 100% sure is definite and assured fact. Not hearsay.

    So tell me what are your evidences?

    1. Muhammed Married Aisha when she was 6.
    2. Began having sex when she was 9.

    Again let me reiterate because I know the evidence you are gonna post anyway. Please give me evidence that you think are historically accurate. Don't tell me what others think, tell me what you think and evidences to authenticate it.

    Lets see.
     
  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    A Muslim historical text called:
    Bukhari, Book of Qualities of the Ansar, chapter: ‘The Holy Prophet’s marriage with Aisha, and his coming to Madina and the consummation of marriage with her’.

    You will find it quoted on this Muslim website:
    Age of Aisha (ra) at time of marriage
     
  8. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Not all sources agree with that assessment. Modern thinking is that she was around 18.
     
  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    So you again, you believe that is absolutely absolute historical fact simply because some muslims told you?

    You trust some muslims who said that so much? I mean so much so that you don't need to make any analysis, you just trust it so much blindly. Isn't that just blind faith? Aren't they your God then?
     
  10. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    I suspect the vagaries surrounding this issue, and where some proposals to lower the age of marriage or abolish it, might be fuelling all the concerns - can't find the article or the country, but a religious cleric apparently did try to get the law changed based on the assumption of Aisha's age being nine when the marriage was consummated. Does this help?

    No minimum age for marriage of girls – Grand Mufti

    or this:

    Iraq: Don’t Legalize Marriage for 9-Year-Olds

    Edit: Found one link to what I referenced:

    Child Bride Practice Rising In Iran, Parliament Seeks To Lower Girl's Legal Marriage Age To 9

    The legal affairs committee of parliament told the press that they regard the law that prohibits girls below the age of 10 from being married off to be "un-Islamic and illegal," referencing Islamic scripture to which describes the Prophet Muhammad -- the perfect example of all Muslims -- marrying a six-year-old bride, with whom he consummated the marriage when she was only nine years old.
     
    #10 Mock Turtle, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    It is no mystery that many people believe (especially a few christian apologists, no pun intended). These apologist believe this particular hadith so vehemently that they truly believe its historical fact. When asked for reasons to believe this particular hadith, no proper reason is given because it is evident that the proponent they believe in only a set of cherry picked Hadiths that they wish to use as a weapon against Muslims.

    This is not an attempt to authenticate the hadith. This to show you that from your own favourite Hadiths, it can be shown that its ambiguous, and could be shown this so called child marriage may not have happened. This is for those who are not satisfied with the evidence from Quran that a child cannot be married off. If you insist.

    Evidence from hadith

    1. It is said that Asma, the sister of Aisha was ten years older than Aisha. - (Atthabari)

    2. And it also says that Asma was 100 years old when she died, and it was the 73 Hijra. - (Tahzibut Tahzib)

    3. That means obviously 100-73 = 27. So at the time of Hijri, Asma was 27 years old.

    4. So it is only simple to understand that Aisha was 17 years old.

    5. Abu Bakr wished Aisha to be married 8 years before Hijra. So in the proponents logic, Aisha would have been just born, which is impossible.

    6. So this marriage which would have been taken place in the 1st or 2nd Hijra which makes Aisha 18 or 19.

    7. If you look at the hadith Aisha is referred to as Bikr, Not Jariah. Which means a woman of adult age, not a childhood or early teen age which is Jariah.

    Peace.
     
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I believe it is true because an original source document of history states so. That is how history is constructed.

    And honestly, if it is accepted by Muslims (as well as scholars) despite its scandal, you should sit up and take note.
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    No.. Aisha was born before the Call.. That would make her closer to 19.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Most of the Hadiths came from Persia 200 years after the death of Muhammed. .. So what original source documents are you talking about?

    Do you perchance believe that Genesis and Exodus are historical reality?
     
  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    There is no historical record to this effect. This is simply a 20th century invention to gloss over the scandal.

    But although you are dead wrong, let's hypothesize for the sake of argument that you have a point. Well, Muslims STILL *believe* that she was married at age six and the marriage was consummated at age nine. Thus the teaching of child marriage is THERE.
     
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  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It's STILL an original source document. There are zero original source documents that say she was 18. Do you not know what an original source document is?
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Genesis was borrowed from the canaanite and Babylonians. I'll post information about aisha again for you.
     
  18. Earthtank

    Earthtank Active Member

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    Fallacy of presentism. Look it up and educate yourself.
     
  19. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I believe that the marriage was likely normal according to the culture of the day. A marriage occurred in Yemen a few years ago, where the bride was 9 years old. She subsequently died. I do not know if she died in childbirth? In many places in the Middle East a woman's life is not worth much.

    In India, when a man died, his wife was supposed to burn on his funeral pyre. I believe that was called Sucee? There was a similar custom with the Vikings but I do not know the details.

    I was reading a Woman's Journal from American Colonial times when a girl of 12 years old, was sold by her indentured parents to another farmer for a Cow. He later sold her baby to another farmer. I forget what the price was.

    I'm not going to research this, but In certain states in America marriage can happen as young as 14 with a Judge's consent.
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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