Check your attitude

[Melody]

I've noticed lately...or perhaps I've noticed it intermittently and that's why I disappear from the forum for months at a time....that christians seem to be a definite target on RF. When a question about faith comes up, where we are specifically asked why we believe something, many of us do our best to respond in a courteous, informative manner. Then are treated as if we are stupid, illogical, brain-dead lemmings.

Sadly, as a result, some of the more knowledgeable christian posters seem to have disappeared. My guess is they got tired of being attacked and noticed that when non-believers asked a question, it wasn't to find out what we thought, as much as it seemed they wanted to convert us or show us the error of our ways.

I would suggest to those of you who make it a habit to have target practice on christian beliefs for no more than a reason to somehow make yourself feel smarter than people of faith, that we are not illogical. You have just closed your mind and refuse to see our logic.

You don't have to agree...just respectfully disagree. There are many atheists on this board who I admire because they have the capacity to say the argument is logical even if they don't agree with it. It is apparently by their courteous behavior and thought provoking posts that they respect us, even if they don't understand us. Their posts cause me to think about what I believe and I think my faith is stronger for it.

For those atheists who appear angry and who resort to insults, rudeness and cutting behavior, one wonders whether you don't believe in God....or whether you're just angry at God and won't be happy until you can convince others there is no God too.

There is a part of me that says this is a wasted post and will just result in more insults, but I am hoping that some of you will take a serious look at "why" you have religious debates when you don't believe in God.

Respectfully,

 

[Faint]

I'm probably one of the more cutting/antagonisitic members here (or at least I used to be) so I'll respond to this. I can't speak for the others but I will say this: if you are offended by what I say, please keep in mind I'm attacking the arguement (and often your faith...which in itself IS an arguement) not you personally. I don't even know you (or others) personally. That being said:

For those atheists who appear angry and who resort to insults, rudeness and cutting behavior, one wonders whether you don't believe in God....or whether you're just angry at God and won't be happy until you can convince others there is no God too.

I agree...personal insults do no good. But on some levels, what you typed above is insulting in itself. Perhaps you meant it that way? I don't know. But I'll tell you this...most of the atheists/agnostics I know do not believe in God, and their venom tends to come from a perspective that theists are ruining this planet/civilization with what we consider to be superstitious, old-fashioned thinking. I don't mean this to be offensive--it's just how many of us look at things. Trends we see. I look forward to a future of humankind that is not held back or disrupted by religions like Christianity. I see it as a counter-productive meme complex. I'd say that's just me, but it isn't.

There is a part of me that says this is a wasted post and will just result in more insults, but I am hoping that some of you will take a serious look at "why" you have religious debates when you don't believe in God.

Respectfully,

Why? For the same reason I explained above. For my part, I debate to gain more of an understanding of where you're coming from. I debate in hopes of getting others to see things differently (i.e. the way I see them). But mostly I debate because it's cheap entertainment while I have writer's block on this novel I've been putting together.

Anyway, I often target Christianity because it's one of the largest organized religions and heavily represented here (and in my country, the USA). On occasion, I'll also aim at Islam, and Judaism, LDS or any of the mainstream abrahamic beliefs. It's all the same to me...with slight variations of course...but still the same way of thinking.

 

[Melody]

I can't speak for the others but I will say this: if you are offended by what I say, please keep in mind I'm attacking the arguement (and often your faith...which in itself IS an arguement) not you personally.

I'm not talking about debating the topic at hand. I am talking about those who become insulting towards the poster.

But on some levels, what you typed above is insulting in itself.

Not it wasn't meant to be insulting. It was meant as a query and I would hope that people would take an honest look at why they are becoming so angry towards christians....and I say christians because I've noticed the nastiness is most often not at theists as a whole...but at christians.

most of the atheists/agnostics I know do not believe in God, and their venom tends to come from a perspective that theists are ruining this planet/civilization with what we consider to be superstitious, old-fashioned thinking.

I can understand because I have the same feeling about non-believers. However, I try to treat them with the same respect and courtesy I use with believers.

 

[Mister_T]

I am talking about those who become insulting towards the poster.

I will be quick to point out that this is not exclusive to just Atheists.

 

[Faint]

I'm not talking about debating the topic at hand. I am talking about those who become insulting towards the poster.

Then I agree. They're being immature...whether atheists or theists.

Not it wasn't meant to be insulting. It was meant as a query and I would hope that people would take an honest look at why they are becoming so angry towards christians....and I say christians because I've noticed the nastiness is most often not at theists as a whole...but at christians.

This reminds me of the homophobes who complain so much about gay people because they are gay themselves and ashamed of it. I really don't think it applies here though. The people I think you're talking about know what they believe...they're probably still trying to hammer out all the bugs/refine their arguments for why. I used to be that way, so I speak from experience on this...the punk rock, "f*** you" attitude. I would say their anger comes from another source...some kind of frustration in their daily lives. Whether or not that frustration is religious-related, I couldn't say. But Christianity is a convenient target.

I can understand because I have the same feeling about non-believers. However, I try to treat them with the same respect and courtesy I use with believers.

Which is the proper way of doing things. Can't argue with that.

 

[eudaimonia]

I've noticed lately...or perhaps I've noticed it intermittently and that's why I disappear from the forum for months at a time....that christians seem to be a definite target on RF. When a question about faith comes up, where we are specifically asked why we believe something, many of us do our best to respond in a courteous, informative manner. Then are treated as if we are stupid, illogical, brain-dead lemmings.

It would be helpful if you could post links to specific posts so we know what you mean.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Scuba Pete]

There will always be people who will use words like "garbage" or "Horse Puckie" in an argument. It does nothing to further the discussion and only creates animosity.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Melody, please understand that the very belief that "Jesus is the only way........all other faiths are not only inferior, but doomed" is insulting by itself. When followers of this belief enter a thread and convey this belief, it smacks of arrogance to everyone else..........no matter how nicely it's conveyed.



I do not agree with Christians being a target. I disagree with much of Christianity, but it will be a rare day that you will find me praying that my Christian friends find the truth in the dharma and to dismiss that irrational teaching in the Bible. However, even the most compassionate witnessing to me as a Buddhist for the sake of my soul comes from the assumption that they corner the market to morality, ethics, and theological truth. Where is the humility in that?




I am very much a minority as a Buddhist in the U.S. Midwest. I am bombarded by literature, television programs, and even neighbors and family members with messages that I am the stupid, misguided lemming. It is one thing to disagree. It is another thing entirely to claim that your religion is the only true religion...........and then expect no challenge to it or any feelings or alienation/hurt from that claim.




It is like locking a person up in a room because he looks differently than others, feeding him barely enough to survive, and then defending oneself by exclaiming, "But, we have ALWAYS been polite to him in our speech. We've done nothing wrong!"




For the Christians who claim that Jesus is the only way, please be prepared for backlash and counter-arguments. The first claim drew first blood by degrading and insulting not just one other faith, but ALL other faiths. I don't agree with countering the first blood with more mud-slinging or more blood, however. That is wrong, too.





I hope that explains some of the inner workings of those who unfortunately resort to insults to you and other Christians. They suffer mightily from some Christians' claims.



Peace,
Mystic

 

[Melody]

It would be helpful if you could post links to specific posts so we know what you mean.

I would prefer not pointing fingers at specific people. This was merely meant to get people to think about whether they are going beyond the bounds of good behavior when responding to posts to which they have asked for responses.

 

[Melody]

For the Christians who claim that Jesus is the only way, please be prepared for backlash and counter-arguments. The first claim drew first blood by degrading and insulting not just one other faith, but ALL other faiths.

Unfortunately, Mystic, my faith says there is only one way and it's not meant to be insulting. I certainly don't go around telling people of other faith that they are stupid and I don't think it's insulting that they think my faith is wrong. It's just different.

Why not look at it as just another belief instead of looking at it as a personal insult?

 

[Buttercup]

Melody, please understand that the very belief that "Jesus is the only way........all other faiths are not only inferior, but doomed" is insulting by itself. When followers of this belief enter a thread and convey this belief, it smacks of arrogance to everyone else..........no matter how nicely it's conveyed.



I do not agree with Christians being a target. I disagree with much of Christianity, but it will be a rare day that you will find me praying that my Christian friends find the truth in the dharma and to dismiss that irrational teaching in the Bible. However, even the most compassionate witnessing to me as a Buddhist for the sake of my soul comes from the assumption that they corner the market to morality, ethics, and theological truth. Where is the humility in that?




I am very much a minority as a Buddhist in the U.S. Midwest. I am bombarded by literature, television programs, and even neighbors and family members with messages that I am the stupid, misguided lemming. It is one thing to disagree. It is another thing entirely to claim that your religion is the only true religion...........and then expect no challenge to it or any feelings or alienation/hurt from that claim.




It is like locking a person up in a room because he looks differently than others, feeding him barely enough to survive, and then defending oneself by exclaiming, "But, we have ALWAYS been polite to him in our speech. We've done nothing wrong!"




For the Christians who claim that Jesus is the only way, please be prepared for backlash and counter-arguments. The first claim drew first blood by degrading and insulting not just one other faith, but ALL other faiths. I don't agree with countering the first blood with more mud-slinging or more blood, however. That is wrong, too.





I hope that explains some of the inner workings of those who unfortunately resort to insults to you and other Christians. They suffer mightily from some Christians' claims.



Peace,
Mystic

Mystic, as a Christian I have to agree with your very aptly worded post. It is entirely true and a large reason why I am such a poor salesman for Christianity. I dislike greatly telling anyone that my beliefs are the right way....gives me shudders to think about it. People need to find their own path...without being force fed.

So, yes, in the cases where a poster is proclaiming that Chrianity or their church is the true, sole way to God....I can completely see how that would be perceived as insulting and open for counter arguments that lead to less than polite debates.

 

[Comet]

I would prefer not pointing fingers at specific people. This was merely meant to get people to think about whether they are going beyond the bounds of good behavior when responding to posts to which they have asked for responses.

It works both ways and there are plenty of posts by Christian, Atheists, and everyone else that resort to personal attacks and name calling. Some people just don't get it. Religion is a touchy subject with almost everybody it can bring out the worst (as well as the best) in all people.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Unfortunately, Mystic, my faith says there is only one way and it's not meant to be insulting. I certainly don't go around telling people of other faith that they are stupid and I don't think it's insulting that they think my faith is wrong. It's just different.

Why not look at it as just another belief instead of looking at it as a personal insult?

Because you don't look at your own belief as just another belief. You believe your faith is the only true faith. You also don't look at others beliefs as merely "different." You see other faiths as ultimately leading nowhere near God. And, unfortunately, when your faith says that it's the only way, you fail to put yourself in others' shoes to understand how insulting it is..........even though you intend not to be.



I don't envy your position. :flower:



Peace,
Mystic

 

[Mister_T]

Unfortunately, Mystic, my faith says there is only one way and it's not meant to be insulting. I certainly don't go around telling people of other faith that they are stupid and I don't think it's insulting that they think my faith is wrong. It's just different.

Why not look at it as just another belief instead of looking at it as a personal insult?

The thing is Melody, by openly stating that, you indirectley condemn others for their beliefs.

It's like being in an art class: Everyone in the class is working hard on their artwork. Everyone is very proud of their expression that they have portrayed on paper. When asked to share about their piece, one person declares (as nice as possible) that their form of art expression is the only correct way because they followed "The Art Book". The teacher points out that the other students have art books as well. In which the person says "I don't believe their art books to be right. I believe that their art is not correct art." Everyone's hard work expression has indirectly been condemned. People get offended by the subtle smugness of that statement.

Of course when talking about religion, the subject is far more severe and offending. It is no secret in the Christian religion that if you don't believe in the one way, that you are on a path to Hell. And although you may never say those exact words, people still pick that out of what you're saying.

On the other side of the coin, many other religions claim exclusivity and they do not receive nearly as much backlash.

 

[Rejected]

I've noticed lately...or perhaps I've noticed it intermittently and that's why I disappear from the forum for months at a time....that christians seem to be a definite target on RF. When a question about faith comes up, where we are specifically asked why we believe something, many of us do our best to respond in a courteous, informative manner. Then are treated as if we are stupid, illogical, brain-dead lemmings.

I can only speak for myself on this topic, and as I sometimes can get a little belligerent, I would like to apologize.

But I would like to clarify that it’s not specifically Christians that I "target." I would challenge anyone who held belief in an external, sentient deity who intercedes in human affairs. To me the concept is superstition and mythic.
Unfortunately Christians are the ones who seem most comfortable in expressing these beliefs, so they catch a lot of the fire.

Sadly, as a result, some of the more knowledgeable christian posters seem to have disappeared. My guess is they got tired of being attacked and noticed that when non-believers asked a question, it wasn't to find out what we thought, as much as it seemed they wanted to convert us or show us the error of our ways.

I want to convert no one. If you are happy with your belief system then that’s fine. But I don't appreciate being told that I'm destined for Hellfire and eternal suffering, even indirectly. I really don’t ask many questions about the Christian religion because I used to practice it. I know the beliefs, I no longer believe them.

I would suggest to those of you who make it a habit to have target practice on christian beliefs for no more than a reason to somehow make yourself feel smarter than people of faith, that we are not illogical. You have just closed your mind and refuse to see our logic.

But the Christian religion is illogical.

You're asking me to believe that, among other things, a body of water composed of millions of gallons of water simply spit down the middle; that a woman gave birth to a human child without having intercourse at a time when artificial insemination hadn't been conceived; that after a particularly horrendous method of execution a man was locked in a cave for three days and returned to life; water was magically transformed into wine; two fishes and five loaves of bread were magically multiplied to feed over 5000 people. Does all of that sound logical to you?

You say "have faith." But what exactly am I supposed to have faith in? I've never seen any evidence of Gods miracles, only a book that is full of contradictions, has been added-to and taken-from, edited and revised countless times in the last 2000+ years. How am I supposed to hang the foundation of my life on a concept that is completely abstract and intangible?

You don't have to agree...just respectfully disagree. There are many atheists on this board who I admire because they have the capacity to say the argument is logical even if they don't agree with it. It is apparently by their courteous behavior and thought provoking posts that they respect us, even if they don't understand us. Their posts cause me to think about what I believe and I think my faith is stronger for it.

Don't misunderstand me, I believe that the bible if full of very good moral advice and spiritual enlightenment. The book of Matthew alone is invaluable to me. But I will choose to disagree on the mechanics of the religion, as well as its claim on the monopoly to salvation, but I will try to remain as respectful as possible in doing so.

For those atheists who appear angry and who resort to insults, rudeness and cutting behavior, one wonders whether you don't believe in God....or whether you're just angry at God and won't be happy until you can convince others there is no God too.

There is a part of me that says this is a wasted post and will just result in more insults, but I am hoping that some of you will take a serious look at "why" you have religious debates when you don't believe in God.

Respectfully,

This is why I tend to keep out of actual debates and try to have more discussions about life without trying to throw a religious spin on it. People get insulted and offended and that is never my aim.
I don’t target Christians, they make themselves targets; I just pull the trigger.

 

[dawny0826]

I understand where Melody is coming from and think that she's expressed her views very eloquently and politely.

If I speak to another about Christianity...I'm only speaking from my heart about what I believe to be truth as I'm sure an Atheist or an Agnostic or anyone else would do.

My responsibility as a Christian is to stand firm on the Word of God. My responsibility is also to carry out the great commission which is to spread the gospel.

If I've ever come across as an arrogant individual because of this...that's not my intent but I won't forsake my religious responsibilities for fear of insult. When I speak of the Word and speak of my religion...I try to convey my thoughts and feelings in as respectful of a manner as possible because I care about the feelings of those I'm discussing/debating with.

I don't think anyone here on the forums or in their daily lives should sell out their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) to appease others.

I also get what Melody's saying. Sometimes it feels like the attacks against Christian faiths are relentless and it's kind of hard at times not to feel like it's personal. I wanted to make sure Melody knew that I really DO understand where she's coming from.

 

[Melody]

And, unfortunately, when your faith says that it's the only way, you fail to put yourself in others' shoes to understand how insulting it is..........even though you intend not to be.

Mystic,
I'll have to refer you to my God for the answer on that one....since He made the rules.

 

[Melody]

The thing is Melody, by openly stating that, you indirectley condemn others for their beliefs.

*I* condemn nobody. *I* believe. You are free to believe whatever you like and it will be up to God to do what He wills. I didn't write the rules.

 

[Mister_T]

*I* condemn nobody. *I* believe. You are free to believe whatever you like and it will be up to God to do what He wills. I didn't write the rules.

*I* understand that. *I'm* just offering a perspective of how others take things since you seem to be in question as to why people are hostile towards that message.

 

[Melody]

You're asking me to believe that, among other things,

No...I'm not asking you to believe that. I'm asking you to understand that there are those of us who do believe that God can do what humans think is impossible. If God can create something out of nothing, then why should I have difficulty believing He can cause a virgin birth, transform water into wine, feed 5000 people with 2 fishes and five loaves of bread, etc.?

But what exactly am I supposed to have faith in? I've never seen any evidence of Gods miracles

I see God's miracles everywhere I look. You would probably call them the results of evolution. The only difference between our faiths is that you've put yours in the science of humans....which says "we think we can deduct how this occurred through observation" and yet still has no way of figuring out how they're going to get from *something* to *nothing*. I put mine in God who can do all things.

How am I supposed to hang the foundation of my life on a concept that is completely abstract and intangible?

Have faith?

But I will choose to disagree on the mechanics of the religion, as well as its claim on the monopoly to salvation, but I will try to remain as respectful as possible in doing so.

And that is absolutely acceptable and I'll I'm asking.