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Chat with Mormons

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by Animore, Nov 24, 2016.

  1. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Religion:
    Agnostic/Gnostic/Ignostic Atheist depending on the God concept
    Here's what when I tried to ask a few questions to LDS members.
    J (me)
    Hello.
    6:56 PM

    LDS (them)
    Hi Jacob! Welcome to Mormon.org. How can we help you?
    6:56 PM

    LDS
    Hello
    6:56 PM

    J
    I have a few questions about the Mormon faith.
    6:57 PM

    LDS
    Ask away!
    6:57 PM

    j
    Great. :) So.
    6:57 PM
    You believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.

    LDS
    Yes.
    6:57 PM

    J
    Okay. Great. And you believe that Jesus is God.
    6:58 PM

    LDS
    We believe that Jesus is a God now that he has been resurrected and glorified.
    6:59 PM
    We believe that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three separate beings.

    J
    Right. Now considering, obviously, blood lineage and all, wouldn't Lucifer also be God?
    6:59 PM

    LDS
    So Jesus Christ was not always a God. He was the Son of God until he was resurrected and glorified. We believe in eternal progression. Lucifer was not able to progress to that stage. In fact, he was cast out of God's presence.
    7:01 PM

    J
    Well, let's think here. We have God. The eternal, omniscient, omnipresent being. If God is eternal, then how could He become God? John describes His relationship with the Father as "with God, and was God." Notice the was there. How could He become God, if He was God?
    7:02 PM

    LDS
    First, I want to ask you a question. If we have a rock-solid answer, what would that change in your life?
    7:03 PM

    J
    If you had a rock solid answer, I'd leave. Maybe even consider joining the faith. But you need to answer the question first.
    7:04 PM
    While you're answering that, I'll ask another question. Do you believe the Bible is infallible?
    7:09 PM

    LDS
    It was hard for a lot of people to understand those things at first. When Christ was on earth He established His church. Later on His doctrine was mingled with doctrines of man. Therefore a lot of misunderstandings arose. We know though that a restoration was needed to bring back the simple truths.
    7:10 PM

    LDS
    Do you know what the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is?
    7:10 PM
    Also we believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. That's the huge importance of the Book of Mormon, which goes right back to our question. Do you know what the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is?
    But to answer your question completely, we know that God is the almighty and he sent his son Jesus Christ to redeem the world from sin. He was the only begotten of the Father and later progressed to becoming a God.
    7:13 PM

    J
    I'll use context clues, and say your trying to "restore" the four books of the gospel to fruition. Yet, you have not answered my questions. However, I' guessing you're going to tryto lead me into a word trap here so I'll go and say it first-hand. If you plan to "restore" the Gospels, you will corrupt such things even more. Which wil lnot help.
    7:13 PM

    LDS
    Our finite minds cannot comprehend the things of eternity.
    7:13 PM

    J
    The Bible is full of contradictions and yet you do not even understand them.
    7:13 PM
    Oh what a cop-out.
    "We cannot understand him."

    LDS
    That's the whole point. We do not understand why there are contridictions in the Bible. So a man named Joseph Smith read in James 1:5 that if we lack wisdom that we can ask God. He did and God appeared to him.
    7:14 PM

    J
    Heard that one many a-time.
    7:14 PM
    It's just a cop-out. Didn't Jesus come so we could "know" God?

    LDS
    We can all ask God what is true and what we should do. If we have a sincere heart to act upon the response, He will answer us
    7:14 PM

    J
    To think He woudld've told us about such things, that there would be a prohet that would make a brand new book.
    7:15 PM
    Answer you? I'd love to hear this.

    LDS
    I am not sure what your question is.
    7:15 PM

    LDS
    Joseph Smith didn't make a new book, he translated an existing record into English so that we would be able to read it. It is another witness that there is truly a God and a Savior.
    7:16 PM

    J
    Didn't He have an eternal throne? I'll ask you that.
    7:16 PM

    LDS
    What Sister Fehlmann is true, but we cannot convince you of that and that is not our purpose. We are here to help you find this answer yourself.
    7:16 PM
    God? Absolutely he has an eternal throne.

    J
    Then one cannot become God.
    7:17 PM

    LDS
    Jesus Christ is the Son of God, so after he finished His mission here on earth He went back to His Father, which is also our Father in Heaven. Do you believe that there is a God?
    7:18 PM

    J
    I used to.
    7:19 PM
    Then I realized there was no evidence.


    LDS
    Humm.. why would you say that there is no evidence? Isn't everything around you an evidence that there must be at least a higher being?
    7:20 PM

    J
    Are you using the "look st the trees and the stars!" argument? No, that's not evidence of God. That's evidence of trees and stars.
    7:20 PM

    LDS
    Well, we cannot provide you solid physical evidence, but we do know that there is a God. A God that loves us and wants us to return home to him. The only way that you can know this as well is to ask God, just as Joseph Smith did and be willing to act on the impressions you receive.
    7:21 PM
    What are you expecting as an answer

    J
    I have asked Him. For many years. I waited for an answer. I searched for one. I looked into bout every popular religion there is. I was a very devout Christian until very recently when I realized I wasn't getting anything. God never revealed himself to me. I wanted something to help calm my nerves and meditate on at night.
    7:23 PM
    I'm not expecting answer. However, if there was an answer which was given, I would convert immediately.

    LDS
    Jacob, what made you want to speak with us today?
    7:24 PM

    J
    I wanted to speak to you because I thought you had some answers to my questions, but instead you gave me "We couldn't understand."
    7:25 PM
    I'm not looking to believe. I'm looking for knowledge.
    And I feel that religion is as noursihing to the intellect as a picture of air.

    LDS
    Something that one of the church leaders said is that faith is a conviction about something we believe. While this makes sense to us, believing people, it is often confusing for non-believers. What he mentions is that there are more ways to see than with our eyes, more ways to feel that with our hands, and more ways to hear than with our ears.
    7:27 PM
    I truly know that not everything that is true needs physical evidence.

    LDS
    I also know that what Shay says is true. Sometimes we also need to walk by faith, not only by facts
    7:28 PM

    J
    If you don't have evidence, then you are living by an untesitfiable hypothesis. There are thousands of religions of the world.
    7:29 PM
    I'll ask you a question.
    How can you know that your system of beliefs is the right one?
    LDS
    I don't really understand why that is a bad thing? To believe and know in a loving God that has a plan for us. Who wants us to return home to him so that we can be eternally happy here and in the eternities.
    7:31 PM

    LDS
    Having faith in something is not having a perfect knowledge of something but to believe in something that we cannot see that is true. Just like love. You cannot see it but it is there
    7:31 PM

    LDS
    To know what church is true, you ask God. Just like Joseph Smith. Just like Sister Fehlmann and I. There is no other way to know than through God.
    7:32 PM
    Again, that is an answer that we cannot give you. You need to search for that on your own.

    J
    But how do you know that that your God is there, out of all the others? Krishna, Bishnu, the great Ju Ju up in the mountain. There are many testimonies of an answered prayer in every religion.
    7:33 PM

    LDS
    Well, you do your research and you ask God what is true.
    7:34 PM

    LDS
    This is something that a prophet from ancient times said. Alma 32:27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.'' That's how I could come to know that God is there. By acting on the things I believed to be true, even though I wasn't quite sure.
    7:34 PM

    J
    So by your own definition, we can know that a cult is true, because by killing themselves they are acting on what they think is true, even though they weren't quite sure.
    7:35 PM

    LDS
    I think it must also be reasonable, killing is probably nothing God would like us to do
    7:36 PM

    LDS
    It seems you will counter everything we say without acting on a single thing we've told you. There really is no other way of knowing what is true without asking God.There isn't anything else we can explain to you. We are sorry we couldn't help you further in your quest to find truth. We hope you have a great thanksgiving and enjoy your night.
    7:37 PM
    If you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask at any questions another time.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So yeah, I basically got demolished, but I learned a few things. They used some pretty bogus arguments however. The reason I put this here is t ask any of you if you would use the same arguments for your religion (excluding obviously the things which are mutually exclusive to Mormonism. Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    If I'd been the Mormon you'd been talking to, you'd have gotten a few different answers than you did. Of course, I probably have a 50-year advantage over the young missionaries you were talking to. As a matter of fact, you might want to consider asking me the exact same questions you asked them, and see how the conversation goes.
     
    #2 Katzpur, Nov 25, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
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  3. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Alright, might as well.

    If Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, is Lucifer then God as well?
     
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  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Short answer: No. Clarification: Like Christians anciently, Mormons believe that all human beings are the offspring of God and that He is the Father of our spirits. (See Acts 17:29 and Hebrews 12:9 if you doubt these doctrines to be biblical.) Unlike traditional Christians, we believe that all of us lived in God's presence prior to being born. We were spirit beings at that time, without bodies of flesh and bones. As the spirit sons and daughters of God, we were all brothers and sisters to each other. This means that one of our spirit brothers was Jesus Christ. Another was Lucifer.

    Here is the important part, the part non-Mormons generally don't understand about our doctrine: Unique among all the sons of God was the one we know as Jesus Christ. Unlike the rest of us, He was with His Father in the beginning. Unlike us, He was perfect in every conceivable way and had all of the divine attributes and qualities His Father had. The shared a unity of will and purpose to such an extent that together, they were known (along with the Holy Ghost) both individually and collectively, as God. Finally, even though we were all the spirit offspring of our Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ was also His Father's "Only Begotten" Son. Under His Father's direction, Jesus Christ created our universe. He was chosen prior to His birth in Bethlehem to be the lamb who would be slain for our sins. (The missionary you spoke to said that Jesus was not always God. Well, he or she was wrong -- misinformed, perhaps.)

    Another of the spirit sons of God was one named Lucifer. Lucifer, incidentally, unlike Jesus Christ, did not exist “in the beginning.” Jesus Christ (i.e. "the Word") not only was "with God" but "was God." Lucifer, on the other hand, did not exist as part of the Godhead, not “in the beginning,” not ever. He was a proud and rebellious son who sought to exalt himself above his Father and who was cast out of Heaven for attempting to do so. When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, he was disowned by his Father, and lost his right to ever again be known as a son of God (or a brother to the greatest of God's sons, Jesus Christ). If Jesus and Satan were sons of the same Father, they were spirit brothers, a fact which in no way reflects positively on Satan or negatively on the Savior of the world.

    Mormons, incidentally, did not invent this doctrine. Not by a long shot. In the third century, the Christian writer, Lactantius, wrote:

    “Before creating the world, God produced a spirit like himself, replete with the virtues of the Father. Later He made another, in whom the mark of divine origin was erased, because this one was besmirched by the poison of jealousy and turned therefore from good to evil. He was jealous of his older brother who, remaining united with the Father, insured his affection unto himself. This being who from good became bad is called devil by the Greeks."

    I don't think most Mormons actually care one way or the other whether other Christians accept this doctrine or not. They would just like people to stop trying to make it look like something it’s not -- like Mormons somehow see Jesus Christ and Lucifer as equals, when nothing could possibly be further from the truth.
     
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  5. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Alright. Makes a lot more sense.

    Here's more of a straight-to-it question, not really relying on a subjective answer.

    No cheating, if you think the Bible is infallible, what are Yeshua's last words?
     
  6. Prestor John

    Prestor John Well-Known Member

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    I am also a member of the LDS Church and Katzpur has my seal of approval.

    I want to attest to the fact that what she shared was the genuine doctrine of the LDS Church and that she is an amazing source of clear and unambiguous LDS doctrine and belief.

    She will never cheat you or anyone.
     
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  7. Prestor John

    Prestor John Well-Known Member

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    The LDS Church does not consider the Bible to be infallible.

    We believe that Jesus Christ will never have "last words".
     
    #7 Prestor John, Nov 26, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
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  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well, I don't believe the Bible to be either infallible or a complete record of God's dealings with mankind, so I guess I don't have to answer your question. ;) Now, you could have asked me what Jesus's last "recorded" words (from the Bible) were, as they are found in the four gospels, and I could have tried to answer that (without cheating, of course :p). But I'm not sure that's what you're actually even asking.
     
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  9. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

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    First, I think you held your own alright, it was just not the kind of discussion you were looking for. That was a missionary trying to move you down a spiritual road, not an intellectual trying to explore thorny problems. Katz and others here are more suited to that kind of discussion.

    Second, as an intellectual who served a mission and had to adapt my mindset to the "spiritual action rather than mutual exploring" mindset, I'd like to explain that the missionary's goal was to get you to take action on something, and get a witness from the Holy Spirit. That's how people move forward spiritually, by taking the leap of faith and getting a witness that their actions were correct. I learned the hard way that if I could persuade someone logically that our way was correct, that persuasion did not last without the witness of the Spirit. Moreover, even when I failed to persuade, people were still converted by the Spirit because they prayed and got an answer. So that's why everything was about getting you to pray.

    I appreciate skepticism and a scientific mindset. In the Book of Mormon, the process of gaining a witness is called an "experiment" at one point:

    You have skepticism, that's fine. That's smart, even. Keep asking questions of Katzpur and the rest, and lay out your experiment: select some small part of what they are sharing, something you can hope would be true, and let that hope work in you. Pray about it. Live some principle of the gospel for a little while, and see if it doesn't enrich your life. If it doesn't, cast it out.

    But if it does, don't be surprised if you can go back to your list of questions and answer a few of them yourself.
     
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  10. Electus de Lumine

    Electus de Lumine Magician of Light

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    I think I will call them up and post the conversation on a thread.

    I am sure it will be interesting.
     
  11. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    But the Bible says "in the beginning was the Word. And the Word WAS God and the Word was with God". Later the Word was made flesh and dwelt among men.Isn' this talking about Jesus? He just was not called by the name Jesus until He was born in a human body. Jesus and the Father have both existed since the beginning. Together the two of them make up the one and only God.
     
  12. Electus de Lumine

    Electus de Lumine Magician of Light

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    Could this not have also meant the idea of the soul?
     
  13. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Seems to be pretty clear. No mention of any soul. Word was with God. Word became flesh. Jesus became flesh. What soul became flesh? People always want to take something that is very clear and try to make it sound unclear because it does not match their beliefs.
     
  14. Prestor John

    Prestor John Well-Known Member

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    Why bring this up at all?
     
  15. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Didn't someone say Mormons do not believe Jesus was God until after his resurrection? But the Bible says the Word was God in the beginning and the Word became Jesus when he was born into a human body.
     
  16. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    All the angels were made by God but they were not His sons anymore then the animals were His sons. They were created beings. If you make a puppet, that puppet is not your son even though you made it. God made Lucifer and the other angels but they were not His sons. God did not make Jesus. They were both present together since the beginning.
     
  17. Electus de Lumine

    Electus de Lumine Magician of Light

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    The bible says the word became flesh actually.

    Christians just like to intpert that as Jesus.
     
  18. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    So, is the Word a separate "person"? Now there are more then three. Father, Son Holy Spirit and Word. If the word became flesh and Jesus was flesh, what other way is there to interpret it? Do Mormons interpret it another way? If Christians interpret it that way then are Mormons not Christians?
     
  19. Prestor John

    Prestor John Well-Known Member

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    Latter-Day Saints believe that Jesus Christ has always been and will always be God.

    It was He who spoke to Adam in the Garden, commanded Noah to build the Ark, covenanted with Abraham and commanded Moses to lead the Israelites.

    We believe that He was "with God" and that He "was God" in the beginning and that He became mortal and then a Resurrected Being.

    He will reign forever.
     
  20. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Mormons believe that Jesus Christ was "the Word" and that the Word was "God," and that this was the case "in the beginning." Any Mormon who tells you otherwise doesn't know his religion very well.
     
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