Charlie Hebdo Muslim hypocrisy still not cured

[Brian2]

Its not my math that you disagree with. It's my pointing out that a prophecy does not and cannot justify a god claim that is sticking in your craw,

The point is that your maths does not do that.

 

[ppp]

The point is that your maths does not do that.

I didn't present any math that was intended to do that. You're fussing about an aside in order to avoid my point. When you make a claim, I addressed that claim in a direct and forthright manner. When I make an argument you do whatever you can to dance away from my points. This is common believer behavior. Entirely expected.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

To actually try to show that the Bible is a contrived book and to not give it credence because of that does demonstrate a problem and bias not towards demonstrable reality and rationality but against a God and the supernatural.

Lots of theists who fully believe in god would demonstrate such. They obviously don't have a problem with god. You, however, do not hold a monopoly and exclusive rights to claim and define the terms god, religion, and supernatural.

I could point to fulfilled prophecy

But you haven't. And it's all so vague I can say "on the morning of stone the wails of dawn announce the death of light as the lords of darkness gain footing" and say that happened this morning, anywhere the morning was kind of gray, where a rooster crowed, and where someone respectable in the community died while a future problem child is born. I'm willing to bet such a thing happens somewhere on this planet most days. It doesn't make it a prophecy, it doesn't make me a prophet, it just means with vague and non-precise language there is no way to verify these events.

to the death and resurrection of Jesus as witnessed and preached about and written about

Except it wasn't going on when it allegedly happened. Such an incredibly thing, but yet it was decades after when stuff started happening.

The Bible flood does not have to be one world wide flood to accomplish God's purposes.

It does need to be global when the Bible says it was global.

An omnipotent God could keep someone alive in a fish for 3 days.

There are alleged reports of this happening from sailors, but minus the god. It's incredibly rare, but allegedly it's happened.

There is evidence of Hebrews in Egypt

Yeah? And? That's not very impressive. They were basically neighbors, and lots of people in the area back then were in Egypt.

Genesis is correct also if understood correctly imo.

Can't be. The story of the languages confused at the Tower of Babel is another impossible story that evidence does not support.

and because nobody has ever found pots of gold etc.

No one has ever found the Ark, either.

To say that someone could have lived in a big fish for a few days is just a miracle and does not really need to be proven and to deny it is even possible because it cannot be proven is not rational.

Then I am Empress of the World. It's a miracle I made it this far, but I did, and I don't have to actually prove this because just to deny it at all is not rational.

 

[Brian2]

I didn't present any math that was intended to do that. You're fussing about an aside in order to avoid my point. When you make a claim, I addressed that claim in a direct and forthright manner. When I make an argument you do whatever you can to dance away from my points. This is common believer behavior. Entirely expected.

I try not to disappoint.
I think my point is however that it is pretty amazing when one prophecy comes true and even more amazing when dozens come true, without errors. This increases the likelihood of the one supplying the predictions being someone who knows the future and even may be able to control the direction of things to make certain things happen.
God gave predictions to Abraham about what He would do for his descendants and it seems the Hebrews kept these things in mind even after hundreds of years in Egypt, then the same God came and saved them from slavery and gave them the promised land. The fulfilled prophecy increased the faith of the Hebrews in that God.

 

[ppp]

I think my point is however that it is pretty amazing when one prophecy comes true and even more amazing when dozens come true, without errors. This increases the likelihood of the one supplying the predictions being someone who knows the future and even may be able to control the direction of things to make certain things happen.
God gave predictions to Abraham about what He would do for his descendants and it seems the Hebrews kept these things in mind even after hundreds of years in Egypt, then the same God came and saved them from slavery and gave them the promised land. The fulfilled prophecy increased the faith of the Hebrews in that God.

Honestly, Brian, this is the type of poor reasoning that made me start to question my beliefs and pushed me away from Christianity.

 

[Brian2]

Lots of theists who fully believe in god would demonstrate such. They obviously don't have a problem with god. You, however, do not hold a monopoly and exclusive rights to claim and define the terms god, religion, and supernatural.

Yes many theists have a problem with the God of the Bible.

But you haven't. And it's all so vague I can say "on the morning of stone the wails of dawn announce the death of light as the lords of darkness gain footing" and say that happened this morning, anywhere the morning was kind of gray, where a rooster crowed, and where someone respectable in the community died while a future problem child is born. I'm willing to bet such a thing happens somewhere on this planet most days. It doesn't make it a prophecy, it doesn't make me a prophet, it just means with vague and non-precise language there is no way to verify these events.

If I haven't pointed to prophecy then why do you say it is so vague? Do you think all Biblical prophecy is as vague and non sensical as the one you gave?

Except it wasn't going on when it allegedly happened. Such an incredibly thing, but yet it was decades after when stuff started happening.

I don't know what you are talking about now.

It does need to be global when the Bible says it was global.

I don't think the Bible tells us there was one global flood.

There are alleged reports of this happening from sailors, but minus the god. It's incredibly rare, but allegedly it's happened.

That's interesting to hear.

Yeah? And? That's not very impressive. They were basically neighbors, and lots of people in the area back then were in Egypt.

Here are a couple of short videos which may be of interest.

Can't be. The story of the languages confused at the Tower of Babel is another impossible story that evidence does not support.

Maybe the evidence would support it if the flood story was seen as a large localised flood.

No one has ever found the Ark, either.

I keep hearing stories of the finding of the Ark but who cares if it is found or not really. Does it have to be found for the story to be true?

Then I am Empress of the World. It's a miracle I made it this far, but I did, and I don't have to actually prove this because just to deny it at all is not rational.

I don't think miracles have to be proven to be believed. Some people need proof it seems for everything that is supernatural but when it comes to believing in a naturalist explanation of things such as where life came from and where the universe might have come from, no proof is needed. Of course there are no scientific answers to these things but that does not matter, it has to be a naturalistic answer because there that is the only possibility acceptable.

 

[Brian2]

Honestly, Brian, this is the type of poor reasoning that made me start to question my beliefs and pushed me away from Christianity.

I came across a book by Josh Mc Dowell called Evidence that Demands a Verdict. It had various Biblical prophecies that had been fulfilled and Josh had guessed at the likelihood of each part of the prophecy coming true and so then worked out the likelihood for the whole prophecy to have come true. He ended with astronomically small probabilities for even one whole prophecy to have come true. He did this with quite a number of prophecies.
Of course to believe these all came true by chance only is fine, something like believing that a room full of monkeys will eventually type the works of Shakespeare without error, but it is possible.

 

[ppp]

I came across a book by Josh Mc Dowell called Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

Evidence that Demands a Verdict is a Christian romance novel. It is not a collection of rational arguments designed logically persuade people that Christianity is true. It is flimsy propaganda designed to make existing believers feel better and more secure about their beliefs.

That book was literally the Last Straw for me. I was still vacillating between belief and non-belief, when a believer friend recommended it to me in hopes of bringing me back in. That book embodied the all of my issues (at that time) with Christian theology and firmly shoved me that last step away from Christianity.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Do you think all Biblical prophecy is as vague and non sensical as the one you gave?

Basically.

I don't know what you are talking about now.

I'm refering to the whole bunch of nothing that went on between the times of Jesus' alleged deaths and when the Gospels were written. But we have stories of such miraculous events that Jesus wasn't the only one brought back to life, but yet nothing else was really going on. The Romans certainly didn't record these. The Jews seemed to have made no note of it. But decades later here is the whole story.

That's interesting to hear.

It means, if the stories are true (sailors have also claimed mermaids are real, so there is that), then god wouldn't be involved. But what we know of large fish, whales, and sharks, the ones large enough to swallow us whole have throats much too small to swallow us and they would choke to death on us, or it would be a "strong predator" type like a great white or an orca, and the lack of a description of severe wounding to Jonah makes it doubtful it could have been such a toothy-predator.

Here are a couple of short videos which may be of interest.

I'm sure you've seen maps of how close proximity they all were. It took much longer to travel the distance then, but nevertheless populations have always mingled and been found here and there and scattered about to varying degrees.

Of course there are no scientific answers to these things but that does not matter

As of now, no. But that doesn't mean we won't some day find out. Basically, everything we know now was unknown at some point in the past. But that doesn't matter. We either find out and learn or we don't.

it has to be a naturalistic answer because there that is the only possibility acceptable.

That tends to be more what is called scientism. It's not science, but rather the belief that science holds all the answers. Many atheists don't even uphold it. Myself, I put a high degree of confidence in numbers and science, but even I see the folly of turning to science for everything.
But to explain something, to prove something, we must have physical and material evidence. Otherwise it never leaves the realm of philosophical speculations.

Maybe the evidence would support it if the flood story was seen as a large localised flood.

Localized flooding helps to possibly explain many of the flood myths throughout history. And I certainly have come across the scholar or two who does believes the flood that inspired Gilgamesh and Noah may have been localized flooding.

Does it have to be found for the story to be true?

It would lend powerful evidence to the claim. And it is because, yes, claims must be supported with evidence.

 

[Brian2]

Evidence that Demands a Verdict is a Christian romance novel. It is not a collection of rational arguments designed logically persuade people that Christianity is true. It is flimsy propaganda designed to make existing believers feel better and more secure about their beliefs.

That book was literally the Last Straw for me. I was still vacillating between belief and non-belief, when a believer friend recommended it to me in hopes of bringing me back in. That book embodied the all of my issues (at that time) with Christian theology and firmly shoved me that last step away from Christianity.

No wonder we disagree.

 

[ppp]

No wonder we disagree.

Yep. You are okay with assuming your conclusion. I'm not.

 

[Brian2]

Basically.

Many prophecies are quite pointed in what they say.

I'm refering to the whole bunch of nothing that went on between the times of Jesus' alleged deaths and when the Gospels were written. But we have stories of such miraculous events that Jesus wasn't the only one brought back to life, but yet nothing else was really going on. The Romans certainly didn't record these. The Jews seemed to have made no note of it. But decades later here is the whole story.

Many things happen in quiet ways, no media thronging around.The news of Lazarus resurrection got out and what the Jewish leaders of the day wanted to do was to kill Lazarus so that the fame of Jesus did not spread more.

It means, if the stories are true (sailors have also claimed mermaids are real, so there is that), then god wouldn't be involved. But what we know of large fish, whales, and sharks, the ones large enough to swallow us whole have throats much too small to swallow us and they would choke to death on us, or it would be a "strong predator" type like a great white or an orca, and the lack of a description of severe wounding to Jonah makes it doubtful it could have been such a toothy-predator.

I see the sailor stories as making the Jonah story a possibility even without a miracle. But that does not mean that God cannot have been involved in the Jonah account.
It may have been something like a whale shark that did it and Jonah could have got stuck and so ended up being vomited up.

I'm sure you've seen maps of how close proximity they all were. It took much longer to travel the distance then, but nevertheless populations have always mingled and been found here and there and scattered about to varying degrees.

Nevertheless the videos do show a close correlation to not just Hebrews but to the story of Joseph and his family in Egypt and at the appropriate time.

That tends to be more what is called scientism. It's not science, but rather the belief that science holds all the answers. Many atheists don't even uphold it. Myself, I put a high degree of confidence in numbers and science, but even I see the folly of turning to science for everything.

But to explain something, to prove something, we must have physical and material evidence. Otherwise it never leaves the realm of philosophical speculations.

There is then philosophical speculation passing off as science these days.

Localized flooding helps to possibly explain many of the flood myths throughout history. And I certainly have come across the scholar or two who does believes the flood that inspired Gilgamesh and Noah may have been localized flooding.

I am told the Hebrew of the flood story can be translated to indicate a smaller flood. But that does not mean that there weren't other floods at that point in history all over the world, destroying civilisations, especially if the populations were more concentrated in the warmer regions, and even in the lower lying areas that are now covered by seas due to rise in ocean levels.
Biblical-Type Floods Are Real, and They're Absolutely Enormous
Megafloods of the Ice Age
An Introduction to the Ice Age Floods – Ice Age Floods Institute.
What Thawed the Last Ice Age?
NASA GISS: Science Briefs: Sea Level Rise, After the Ice Melted and Today

I just love it when science is confirming the Bible.

It would lend powerful evidence to the claim. And it is because, yes, claims must be supported with evidence.

It would lend powerful evidence to the claim and who knows maybe the Ark has been found. But it is wood and would be many thousands of years old.
Scientifically claims should be supported with evidence but not necessarily with human beliefs such as people believing the Bible or even believing that science will one day come up with the naturalistic answers (not that this would show there is no God however.)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Many prophecies are quite pointed in what they say.

Evidence? Provide some of these clear and specific.

Many things happen in quiet ways, no media thronging around.The news of Lazarus resurrection got out and what the Jewish leaders of the day wanted to do was to kill Lazarus so that the fame of Jesus did not spread more.

Evidence?

It may have been something like a whale shark that did it and Jonah could have got stuck and so ended up being vomited up.

A whale shark would have choked to death.

Nevertheless the videos do show a close correlation to not just Hebrews but to the story of Joseph and his family in Egypt and at the appropriate time.

That is nothing significant or even unexpected. Why wouldn't they have a presence there? We can look at the Americas and say the same with non-Aztecs living in the Aztec Empire. Or the numerous Greeks living in the Ottoman Empire.

There is then philosophical speculation passing off as science these days.

Evidence?

I just love it when science is confirming the Bible.

The Bible said specifically global flood. That did not happen. But as for major floods, science would say the flood of every religion is plausible strictly as a localized flood, such as the Polynesians who have their own flood myths.
That just means severe flooding happens.

Scientifically claims should be supported with evidence

They are.