Changing the Bible

[energize]

One of the new interpretations that bothers me is what many Christians have done with Phillipians 2: 6 (the verse before and after are given for context)

5 Let this mind be in you, which
was also in Christ Jesus;
6 Who, being in the form of God,
thought it not robbery to be equal
with God;
7 But made himself of no reputation,
and took upon him the form
of a servant, and was made in the
likeness of men;
8 And being found in fashion as a
man, he humbled himself, and
became obedient unto death, even
the death of the cross.


Here it is in two interpreter's Bibles

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - Phl 2:6 - who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

Hey, if Jesus is supposed to be our example. . . . . if we are to be like minded. . . . . . . and his mind couldn't grasp equality with God. . . .
did he cheat on the final exam?


BenJosh

All read the same in that inference of equality defined "in the form of God", which image and likeness was a thing to be grasped. Refer back to Genesis and man's creation in the same equality of "his image and likeness, created he them".

Did he then cheat on his final exam? No. Is there a more perfect truth obtained from the text you provided? Yes.

"And so he in the image and likeness of God did not think it robbery to embrace equality with God".

 

[benjosh]

ANgellous ,

I don't think Jesus arose from the dead through interpretation, translation, parsing, and exegesis.
The Apostle Paul made a point of the difference between all the fine theology of man's wisdom and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthinans 1:
20 Where is the wise? where is
the scribe? where is the disputer
of this world? hath not God made
foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of
God the world by wisdom knew
not God, it pleased God by the
foolishness of preaching to save
them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign,
and the Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 But we preach Christ crucified,
unto the Jews a stumbling block,
and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them who believe,
both Jews and Greeks, Christ the
power of God, and the wisdom of
God.
25 Because the foolishness of
God is wiser than men; and the
weakness of God is stronger than
men.

What say you? Revelation too simplistic?


BenJosh

 

[angellous_evangellous]

ANgellous ,

I don't think Jesus arose from the dead through interpretation, translation, parsing, and exegesis.
The Apostle Paul made a point of the difference between all the fine theology of man's wisdom and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthinans 1:
20 Where is the wise? where is
the scribe? where is the disputer
of this world? hath not God made
foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of
God the world by wisdom knew
not God, it pleased God by the
foolishness of preaching to save
them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign,
and the Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 But we preach Christ crucified,
unto the Jews a stumbling block,
and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them who believe,
both Jews and Greeks, Christ the
power of God, and the wisdom of
God.
25 Because the foolishness of
God is wiser than men; and the
weakness of God is stronger than
men.

What say you? Revelation too simplistic?


BenJosh

We know from interpreting, parsing, and translating Scripture that the Scripture says that Jesus rose from the dead by the power of God.

You just quoted Scripture. First Corinthians was written in Greek. Parsing, interpretation, and translation is required for your quotation, even if you are unwilling to do it.:banghead3

 

[benjosh]

ANgellous, you said

When a person stops interpreting and translating the Bible - which Christians confess is God's revelation - they are self-defining their own Christianity. The Bible defines Christianity for us. If we just make up another Bible by not reading the Bible, then we are self-defining. Sheesh

By your definition I am not a Christian because I believe revelation is an active, living principle, not a book. The Bible has a well earned reputation as a repository of script written by men who had that principle of revelation operating in their lives.

Therefore, our understanding is only gained from the same perspective. I have revelations of God in relationships, but I am not going to point to my wife or grandchildren to say "Yes, here is revelation. Let's call them revelation. Now, I expect everything about them to be an uncontradictory revelation."

You advocate interpretation and translation as superior to personal revelation. True revelation is consistent with the inspired word of God.

The Bible is not quick,
and powerful, and sharper than
any two-edged sword, piercing
even to the dividing asunder of
body and spirit, and of the joints
and marrow, and is a discerner of
the thoughts and intents of the
heart.

But the word of God is.

And it is available to anyone who relies upon it as revelation.

Revelation has always been dangerous to institutions that rely upon equipping people with tool bags full of man's wisdom. Exegesis, hermeneutics, etc.

BenJosh

 

[benjosh]

Angellous, You said

You just quoted Scripture. First Corinthians was written in Greek. Parsing, interpretation, and translation is required for your quotation, even if you are unwilling to do it.

I didn't have to interpret or translate anything to quote that scripture. SOmebody else did a long time ago.

If something seems suspect, I know where my concordance is.

It's revelation that makes it alive !


BenJosh

 

[Quiddity]

Angellous, You said

I didn't have to interpret or translate anything to quote that scripture. SOmebody else did a long time ago.

If something seems suspect, I know where my concordance is.

It's revelation that makes it alive !


BenJosh

BenJosh, I'm curious why a need for a book with revelation being so alive and all.

~Victor

 

[angellous_evangellous]

BenJosh, I'm curious why a need for a book with revelation being so alive and all.

~Victor

I'm straining to figure out how he came to those conclusions from reading what I wrote

 

[angellous_evangellous]

ANgellous, you said


By your definition I am not a Christian because I believe revelation is an active, living principle, not a book. The Bible has a well earned reputation as a repository of script written by men who had that principle of revelation operating in their lives.

Therefore, our understanding is only gained from the same perspective. I have revelations of God in relationships, but I am not going to point to my wife or grandchildren to say "Yes, here is revelation. Let's call them revelation. Now, I expect everything about them to be an uncontradictory revelation."

You advocate interpretation and translation as superior to personal revelation. True revelation is consistent with the inspired word of God.

The Bible is not quick,
and powerful, and sharper than
any two-edged sword, piercing
even to the dividing asunder of
body and spirit, and of the joints
and marrow, and is a discerner of
the thoughts and intents of the
heart.

But the word of God is.

And it is available to anyone who relies upon it as revelation.

Revelation has always been dangerous to institutions that rely upon equipping people with tool bags full of man's wisdom. Exegesis, hermeneutics, etc.

BenJosh

I can't see how you came to that conclusion by what I have written.

You advocate interpretation and translation as superior to personal revelation. True revelation is consistent with the inspired word of God.

How can you have one without the other?

 

[benjosh]

BenJosh, I'm curious why a need for a book with revelation being so alive and all.

~Victor

Because we are not designed by God to be all subjective nor all objective, The truth is in the middle.

My going around with Energize is because he seems to say the objective is everything. But that may not actually be what he is saying. SO, we counterbalance one another.

It's the old horse and carriage thing . . . . you can't have one without the other.


BenJOsh

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Because we are not designed by God to be all subjective nor all objective, The truth is in the middle.

My going around with Energize is because he seems to say the objective is everything. But that may not actually be what he is saying. SO, we counterbalance one another.

It's the old horse and carriage thing . . . . you can't have one without the other.


BenJOsh

Just like Aristotle.

 

[benjosh]

I can't see how you came to that conclusion by what I have written.

You advocate interpretation and translation as superior to personal revelation. True revelation is consistent with the inspired word of God.

How can you have one without the other?

PLease expound a bit.


BenJOsh

 

[Quiddity]

Because we are not designed by God to be all subjective nor all objective, The truth is in the middle.

In the middle?

My going around with Energize is because he seems to say the objective is everything. But that may not actually be what he is saying. SO, we counterbalance one another.

It's the old horse and carriage thing . . . . you can't have one without the other.

Certainly you can. God can so choose to reveal himself and accomplish what you are talking about. His revelations alone are both objective and subjective because he hardly ever says everything about Himself, does He?

~Victor

 

[angellous_evangellous]

PLease expound a bit.


BenJOsh

No problem.

"You advocate interpretation and translation as superior to personal revelation. True revelation is consistent with the inspired word of God."

Let's start with "True revelation is consistent with the inspired word of God."

Is the inspired word of God recorded in what is commonly referred to as the Old and New Testament?

If so, the OT is written in Hebrew/Aramaic and the NT is written in Greek. Both require interpretation and translation if we are to read them in English. Interpretation and translation are absolutely required if we are to outline what is "the inspired word of God." If you think that the Bible is the inspired word of God (which I do not know if you do or not) then you also must advocate interpretation and translation as superior to personal revelation if you think that True revelation is consistent with the inspired word of God. If not, please let us know what the inspired word of God is so we can interpret you correctly.

Even as we write and discuss this issue we must interpret eachother's words. You obviously misread and misinterpreted something that I wrote because you concluded somehow that I was judging your Christianity.

 

[wmam]

You have assumed a lot on little information. One wonders how often you do this with scripture.

To make this pertinent to the current conversation, I would like to point out that MANY changes to the scriptures are cultural in nature. The meanings in both the Greek and the translations change over time and we are not very swift in keeping up with those changes. Instead of doing cultural or linguistic research, many are content to ASSUME that they understand what is being said. They rely on archaic terms that many don't relate to because they feel it gives them some type of edge in their knowledge and we all know that knowledge is power.

The irony of all this?

I Corinthians 8:1 We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God. NIV

So who cares what you know or what you THINK you know... without love you are but a clanging gong or a resounding cymbal. I see a lot of pride and arrogance in those who claim to understand it all. I see a lot of intolerance and heaps of condescension too. Unfortunately, I can't say that I am innocent of having pride or arrogance. I just hope that I can learn to just love when others are telling me how smart they are and how dumb I am.

So what if someone changes scripture? Do you think that the Spirit of God is unable to cope with this? The Spirit is the Counselor. He guides us into all understanding... and not just head knowledge. The Spirit leads us to HEART knowledge. That's why we have God's law written on our hearts; Love God and Love Everyone Else! He is successful against all odds for he is the Spirit of the Living God.

Yada, Yada, Yada, Yada................

Just goes to show the arrogant nature of those that would slam in others face that they are in fact worshiping the right, so called god. It would never ever come across their minds that they could be wrong. So you have many different sides believing that they are right, but all could be wrong, but it doesn't matter because we can just beat up on each other and call names and say that what others say is wrong or arrogant or whatever to make them look bad to make ourselves look like something we are definitely not. LOL

Talk about assuming from little info. LOL Anyone with a grade school education can plainly see that I said "PLACES" and that I also said that it was only "MY OPINION". I never said anyone, and especially not anyone here, believed in lies or half truths. Though I can see from your actions how some do fall for them.

I don't follow you around and post negative crap about what you say. It's almost as if you do your best to try and look better and bigger, some how, than just about anyone on here. I've seen you use your rhetoric on others here.

Just remember that I do not care that you disagree with me and I do not care that you may have some kind of problem with me. I do care that you seem to think you are some how so much better than anyone else here though that you take it upon yourself to bagger and condemn what others say at every breath you take. :tsk:

 

[opensoul7]

considering that the original gospels were written anywhere from 60-100+ years after the death of Jesus .And that of the plethra of "christian" works written only a small amount made it into the bible.And then that the church changed it and edited it anyway through various councils, does it matter? The true works have long since been altered, or lost.God can speak to you anywhere anytime through any medium.When God is speaking all you have to do is listen with your heart . Whether any holy book has ever been changed (as matter of faith )does not make a difference because God is talking and guiding us all the time.

 

[searcher63]

Yada, Yada, Yada, Yada................

Just goes to show the arrogant nature of those that would slam in others face that they are in fact worshiping the right, so called god. It would never ever come across their minds that they could be wrong. So you have many different sides believing that they are right, but all could be wrong, but it doesn't matter because we can just beat up on each other and call names and say that what others say is wrong or arrogant or whatever to make them look bad to make ourselves look like something we are definitely not. LOL

Talk about assuming from little info. LOL Anyone with a grade school education can plainly see that I said "PLACES" and that I also said that it was only "MY OPINION". I never said anyone, and especially not anyone here, believed in lies or half truths. Though I can see from your actions how some do fall for them.

I don't follow you around and post negative crap about what you say. It's almost as if you do your best to try and look better and bigger, some how, than just about anyone on here. I've seen you use your rhetoric on others here.

Just remember that I do not care that you disagree with me and I do not care that you may have some kind of problem with me. I do care that you seem to think you are some how so much better than anyone else here though that you take it upon yourself to bagger and condemn what others say at every breath you take. :tsk:

CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

 

[Aqualung]

If you or your Church believe that the original author/s of the Bible where wrong, do you believe that you can/should change it?

ONLY if htey are commanded by god to do the same. Now, I'll go read the thread to see if anybody made that same comment...

 

[benjosh]

No problem.

"You advocate interpretation and translation as superior to personal revelation. True revelation is consistent with the inspired word of God."

Let's start with "True revelation is consistent with the inspired word of God."

Is the inspired word of God recorded in what is commonly referred to as the Old and New Testament?

If so, the OT is written in Hebrew/Aramaic and the NT is written in Greek. Both require interpretation and translation if we are to read them in English. Interpretation and translation are absolutely required if we are to outline what is "the inspired word of God." If you think that the Bible is the inspired word of God (which I do not know if you do or not) then you also must advocate interpretation and translation as superior to personal revelation if you think that True revelation is consistent with the inspired word of God. If not, please let us know what the inspired word of God is so we can interpret you correctly.

Even as we write and discuss this issue we must interpret each other's words. You obviously misread and misinterpreted something that I wrote because you concluded somehow that I was judging your Christianity.

I am simply saying, interpretation and translation have their place but not when they make someone so uptight they can't receive revelation. That is the basis of Christ's church flesh and blood not revealing it, but the Father.

Man glories in learning.

2 For I determined not to know
anything among you, save Jesus
Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness,
and in fear, and in much
trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching
was not with enticing words
of man's wisdom, but in demonstration
of the Spirit and of
power;
5 That your faith should not stand
in the wisdom of men, but in the
power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom
among them that are perfect; yet
not the wisdom of this world, nor
of the princes of this world, that
come to naught;
7 But we speak the wisdom of
God in a mystery, even the hidden
wisdom, which God ordained before
the world unto our glory;

You can not rationalize how tight a straight jacket is drawn when relying on exegesis, hermeneutics, etc. Only personal revelation can change that.

BenJosh

 

[TheGreaterGame]

If you or your Church believe that the original author/s of the Bible where wrong, do you believe that you can/should change it?

No the Canon is closed.

 

[Katzpur]

No the Canon is closed.

Says who?