• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Changing the Bible

A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
wmam said:
I guess this is one that will just have to be left up to faith as so much is. Either you believe or you don't. As one once said......." You either will or you won't, or you'll do or you don't."

Like so many other things, in what we know as our world and universe, we either have to take it on faith or question it to the death. But to question something to the death to what end? Are we trying to disprove what is or isn't? If one believes something to be True then so be it. Why would anyone try so hard to sway one's belief one way or the other? If that person is solid in their belief then why would anyone care to waste their time to destabilize it? To what gain? What? To some how feel puffed up and feel larger than life that we had some way changed the thinking of ones mind? So silly. We debate here as to questions posed and to each of our beliefs. Why can't others just leave well enough alone what one feels to be Truth and they themselves be happy with their version without demeaning the other or demanding proof through Scriptures only to say themselves that Scriptures are not inerrant? I just don't understand. To me it is as it is and it is Truth.

angellous_evangellous,

Please accept my apology's that most, if not all of this, was not intended to be toward you, or anyone, but rather an observation on the whole. I must say that I have found myself just as guilty and I am not blameless. I to have sought out to either convert, inspire, or lead others to the path of Truth as I believe. At least here I do not believe that this should be done unless one ask for it. We shouldn't force ourselves on one another. We should simply state our beliefs and if questioned about them then answer to the best of our abilities and we shouldn't have to fear others condemning or demeaning that of which we state as our belief and understanding. I have stated that which I Know on this subject and am satisfied that I know that it be Truth. His Truth stands on it's own and needs no help from the likes of mere mortal man. This is what I know and I'm sticking to it. :D

Shalom.
If you are going to assert something as true, then you need to be able to defend it. Should someone else believe as you believe? Why?

I agree that inerrantcy must be confessed by faith because there is no evidence for the belief in Scripture or from common sense.

I address the issue because I will be a professor of the NT someday, and rubbish like this could keep me from getting a job.
 

wmam

Active Member
angellous_evangellous said:
If you are going to assert something as true, then you need to be able to defend it.
Why? To make you feel better? I see no reason to prove anything. YAH will prove all things.

angellous_evangellous said:
Should someone else believe as you believe? Why?
I would have to say because they where finally given the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

angellous_evangellous said:
I agree that inerrantcy must be confessed by faith because there is no evidence for the belief in Scripture or from common sense.
LOL ........ I believe that it is, in and of itself, throughout the entire Scriptures and as far as my belief goes, I wouldn't imply that by, the so called, common sense, of the mere mortal man, that anyone could undertsand the Truth of YAH.

angellous_evangellous said:
I address the issue because I will be a professor of the NT someday, and crap like this could keep me from getting a job.
My point exactly. You have taken my belief and reduced it to crap, in your own mind. I would appreciate that you keep that kind of self reflection to yourself. I wouldn't want to be a student of any professor that (1.) was so closed minded as to consider others way of thinking and beliefs as crap.. and (2.) Did not profess the Truth as being that of the Word of YAH.

Shalom.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
wmam said:
My point exactly. You have taken my belief and reduced it to crap, in your own mind. I would appreciate that you keep that kind of self reflection to yourself. I wouldn't want to be a student of any professor that (1.) was so closed minded as to consider others way of thinking and beliefs as crap.. and (2.)Did not profess the Truth as being that of the Word of YAH.

Shalom.
I apologize, I was not being very specific with my reference. I do not think that plenary inspiration is crap.

From my experience, the folks who hold to plenary inspiration are fire-breathing fundamentalists hell-bent on everyone holding to their baseless beliefs. Confessing plenary inspiration is baseless, but it is not crap. Firing professors are seminaries because of the belief is crap, and hiring only those who confess plenary inspiration is academic and theological insest.
 

wmam

Active Member
angellous_evangellous said:
I apologize, I was not being very specific with my reference. I do not think that plenary inspiration is crap.

From my experience, the folks who hold to plenary inspiration are fire-breathing fundamentalists hell-bent on everyone holding to their baseless beliefs. Confessing plenary inspiration is baseless, but it is not crap. Firing professors are seminaries because of the belief is crap, and hiring only those who confess plenary inspiration is academic and theological insest.
I guess we are at an impasse. I can see where cemeteries (seminaries) would do such things but I am not a believer of learning from such places so I will never have to worry myself on being taught lie's and half Truths in such a place. Just remember that this is only my own honest opinion on places that teach something other than that which I believe to be True. To me they teach death and not life which to me can only be through Truth. Truth being the Word of YAH. Mat 4:4 But He answering, said, “It has been written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of YAH.’ ” I for one will never hold you, or anyone, to my own belief. This is a choice that you, as well as others, have the freewill to make as to your own beliefs. I would never stoop so low as to say that I thought anything you thought or believed in was either crap, theological incest or baseless. Reason why would be because it would only be my own chosen standards by which I could apply to such and who am I to judge you and your beliefs?
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
wmam said:
I will never have to worry myself on being taught lie's and half Truths in such a place.
Soooooooooooooooooo,

you have your own special place to learn your lies and half truths? You're special my friend! :D
 

wmam

Active Member
NetDoc said:
Soooooooooooooooooo,

you have your own special place to learn your lies and half truths? You're special my friend! :D
I know I'm special, but not in the short bus meaning of yours. I'm special cause I Know YAH. See, that just it........... You see what I say as lie's and half truths? I can live with that. See, I don't have any types of psychological problems that would make me worry about what someone like you would think about my beliefs. You are free to think of my beliefs in anyway you choose. :D Now thats funny.:biglaugh:
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
You have assumed a lot on little information. One wonders how often you do this with scripture.

To make this pertinent to the current conversation, I would like to point out that MANY changes to the scriptures are cultural in nature. The meanings in both the Greek and the translations change over time and we are not very swift in keeping up with those changes. Instead of doing cultural or linguistic research, many are content to ASSUME that they understand what is being said. They rely on archaic terms that many don't relate to because they feel it gives them some type of edge in their knowledge and we all know that knowledge is power.

The irony of all this?

I Corinthians 8:1 We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God. NIV

So who cares what you know or what you THINK you know... without love you are but a clanging gong or a resounding cymbal. I see a lot of pride and arrogance in those who claim to understand it all. I see a lot of intolerance and heaps of condescension too. Unfortunately, I can't say that I am innocent of having pride or arrogance. I just hope that I can learn to just love when others are telling me how smart they are and how dumb I am.

So what if someone changes scripture? Do you think that the Spirit of God is unable to cope with this? The Spirit is the Counselor. He guides us into all understanding... and not just head knowledge. The Spirit leads us to HEART knowledge. That's why we have God's law written on our hearts; Love God and Love Everyone Else! He is successful against all odds for he is the Spirit of the Living God.
 
NetDoc said:
Soooooooooooooooooo,

you have your own special place to learn your lies and half truths? You're special my friend! :D
I have to jump in here..Sorry to but in..but it strikes me as funny (Curious funny) That you can get away with a post calling another post full of lies, and half -truths, while I have posted messages that were in NO way directed to another poster in such a derogatory way (MINE MADE REFERENCE TO A CERTAIN INSTITUTION I FELT WAS RIDDLED WITH INACCURACIES)...yet yours is allowed to stand "AS-IS"...while mine gets hacked to pieces as:"INFLAMMATORY".
I would really love an explaination on that!
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Re-read the post above it Homie... he was telling OTHERS that they believed in lies and half truths, etc. etc. I was merely showing him (by his own words) just how silly he sounded. You on the other hand, simply do not need my assistance. :D BTW, I wonder why you didn't single him out Homie? You aren't nursing a vendetta now are you? Now... can we get back to the SUBJECT??? It's the thread's title!
 

energize

Member
jgallandt said:
If you or your Church believe that the original author/s of the Bible where wrong, do you believe that you can/should change it?


Could it not be rightlyfully said that the many different interpretations continually change the bible? And it says that God does not change, so men are to reason among themselves as to the correct interpretation in order to obtain a more perfect truth. Thus, the purpose of study, don't you think?
 

benjosh

Member
energize said:
Could it not be rightlyfully said that the many different interpretations continually change the bible? And it says that God does not change, so men are to reason among themselves as to the correct interpretation in order to obtain a more perfect truth. Thus, the purpose of study, don't you think?
One of the new interpretations that bothers me is what many Christians have done with Phillipians 2: 6 (the verse before and after are given for context)

5 Let this mind be in you, which
was also in Christ Jesus;
6 Who, being in the form of God,
thought it not robbery to be equal
with God;

7 But made himself of no reputation,
and took upon him the form
of a servant, and was made in the
likeness of men;
8 And being found in fashion as a
man, he humbled himself, and
became obedient unto death, even
the death of the cross.


Here it is in two interpreter's Bibles

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - Phl 2:6 - who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

Hey, if Jesus is supposed to be our example. . . . . if we are to be like minded. . . . . . . and his mind couldn't grasp equality with God. . . .
did he cheat on the final exam?


BenJosh
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
benjosh said:
One of the new interpretations that bothers me is what many Christians have done with Phillipians 2: 6 (the verse before and after are given for context)

5 Let this mind be in you, which
was also in Christ Jesus;
6 Who, being in the form of God,
thought it not robbery to be equal
with God;

7 But made himself of no reputation,
and took upon him the form
of a servant, and was made in the
likeness of men;
8 And being found in fashion as a
man, he humbled himself, and
became obedient unto death, even
the death of the cross.


Here it is in two interpreter's Bibles

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - Phl 2:6 - who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

Hey, if Jesus is supposed to be our example. . . . . if we are to be like minded. . . . . . . and his mind couldn't grasp equality with God. . . .
did he cheat on the final exam?


BenJosh
You've chosen one of the most difficult verses in the Bible to translate and interpret. However, none of the interpretative choices allow for your conclusion "his mind couldn't grasp equality with God." The point of the verse is that Jesus chose not to grasp equality with God, whatever that means.

There are several definitions and theologies in the verse that are disputed in scholarship. The words for form, pouring out, and servant are all disputed because of Christology. However, in Philippians (see 1.15-21, 3.17-20, 4.10-20) there is a clear theme of voluntarily choosing to set aside a great reputation and act selflessly for Christ. That is, to have the same mind in Christ that he had when he became a servant (whatever that means - did Christ cease to be omniscient, etc to become a servant? - that is the question, not whether or not he chose it).
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
energize said:
Could it not be rightlyfully said that the many different interpretations continually change the bible? And it says that God does not change, so men are to reason among themselves as to the correct interpretation in order to obtain a more perfect truth. Thus, the purpose of study, don't you think?
This is sort of a half- truth. Although interpretation continually changes, we aren't changing the actual text.

Because of progress in textual criticism, the way that we receive the text may always be changing. We don't have any originals - only copies - and no two copies are identical. That's 10k Greek MSS and 20k Latin, and Coptic and Syriac texts are considered as well. That's quite a bit of material to date and sort, and the margian for human error is such that the job will never be finished.

No matter how we interpret the Bible, God remains God. Although we may feel warm and fuzzy about the Bible, if God really is God, then he must reveal "himself" to the community in a powerful, fresh way.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
wmam said:
I guess we are at an impasse. I can see where cemeteries (seminaries) would do such things but I am not a believer of learning from such places so I will never have to worry myself on being taught lie's and half Truths in such a place. Just remember that this is only my own honest opinion on places that teach something other than that which I believe to be True. To me they teach death and not life which to me can only be through Truth. Truth being the Word of YAH. Mat 4:4 But He answering, said, “It has been written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of YAH.’ ” I for one will never hold you, or anyone, to my own belief. This is a choice that you, as well as others, have the freewill to make as to your own beliefs. I would never stoop so low as to say that I thought anything you thought or believed in was either crap, theological incest or baseless. Reason why would be because it would only be my own chosen standards by which I could apply to such and who am I to judge you and your beliefs?
The thing is there are enough people who think this way to shape entire denomenations, and it doesn't matter to them if they are right or wrong. There is no room for growth within this worldview, and indeed no need for seminaries and university study. If everyone teaches what you believe, then it is theological incest and needs no base, because everyone is simply teaching the same thing whether right or wrong. This kind of thing is seriously happening in seminaries of different denomenations, and it is pathetic.
 

benjosh

Member
Angelous,

You said,
angellous_evangellous said:
You've chosen one of the most difficult verses in the Bible to translate and interpret.

Christians should not be operating from translation and interpretation, they should have revelation, or they are not truly Christian in the sense of following Christ and being on His Rock.

When a person places the weight of their self-defined Christianity on translation and interpretation they have left off revelation.

So, my point is not about parsing scripture.
The problem has not been as much about changing the Bible as much as it is the changing of what a Christian is.
The most important question is . . . . Does a Christian have a relationship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
That relationship must begin in revelation and continue in it.
Otherwise, it is just religion.


PS you might want to see my post in how can CHristians be so divided?

In Christ, BenJosh
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
benjosh said:
Angelous,

You said,


Christians should not be operating from translation and interpretation, they should have revelation, or they are not truly Christian in the sense of following Christ and being on His Rock.

When a person places the weight of their self-defined Christianity on translation and interpretation they have left off revelation.

So, my point is not about parsing scripture.
The problem has not been as much about changing the Bible as much as it is the changing of what a Christian is.
The most important question is . . . . Does a Christian have a relationship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
That relationship must begin in revelation and continue in it.
Otherwise, it is just religion.


PS you might want to see my post in how can CHristians be so divided?

In Christ, BenJosh
That's what I meant when I wrote "No matter how we interpret the Bible, God remains God. Although we may feel warm and fuzzy about the Bible, if God really is God, then he must reveal "himself" to the community in a powerful, fresh way."

However, if you are going to read Scripture and make conclusions from it, you are participating in interpretation, translation, parsing, and exegesis. There is a responsible and irresponsible way to read Scripture. Although revelation is needed to "hear" from God, there is no reason to look at the Bible and draw conclusions that are not in the text and claim that it is.

BTW: You said "When a person places the weight of their self-defined Christianity on translation and interpretation they have left off revelation." When a person stops interpreting and translating the Bible - which Christians confess is God's revelation - they are self-defining their own Christianity. The Bible defines Christianity for us. If we just make up another Bible by not reading the Bible, then we are self-defining. Sheesh
 
Top