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Featured Changing beliefs

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by idea, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. idea

    idea Question Everything

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    Many religious faiths hold truth to be constant and unchanging, yet change their doctrine and practices through the years as new information and social norms are changed.

    For those who are religious, what changes in your religious organization would cause you to leave your faith? Do you recognize previous changes, and if so, how do you justify remaining in your church knowing its changing doctrines?

    Example - pre-1990 Mormon (aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) changes to temple ceremony - a few words in bold removed as they attempted to become more mainstream:

     
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  2. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    I recognize development but not a change in substance (for instance the first video in my signature contains a developed expression of the teachings about God but it is the same in substance to what the Lord Jesus and the Apostles taught). A change in substance that would make me leave my Church (although it would not make me "lose my faith" as if I no longer held the Lord Jesus to be Lord, I would just become Orthodox) include but are not limited to:

    - Denial of the Holy Trinity.
    - A denial of Chalcedonian Christology.
    - A defect in the Papacy (this would immediately prove an entire infallible Council to be fallible, making the whole fake).
    - Denial of Original Sin.
    - Teaching that the Second Vatican Council did not bind or teach anything (some groups want this).
    - Denial of creation ex nihilo.
    - Teaching that usury is acceptable.
    - Embracing Pelagianism.
    - Denying any teaching on the BVM (such as the Immaculate Conception).

    Those are examples of what would make me immediately leave.
     
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  3. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I don’t think staying in a religious organization, especially one which claims to be “the true church or group” representing God on the earth can be justified when they make major changes to their doctrine. I left the Catholic Church for this reason, as well as the Mormon Church later. I did go through the temple ceremony pre- 1990 and became aware of the changes made which you highlighted above.
     
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  4. idea

    idea Question Everything

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    Good list. Did the above list originate in your church? If you have faith in something more than a church, where did this faith come from?

    I used to think I had faith beyond my religious group, but have now realized questioning that group has resulted in questioning all the information from that group.
     
  5. idea

    idea Question Everything

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    Did leaving one group make it easier to leave another? Do you think you could ever be part of a group which believes itself to be the "true faith" again?
     
  6. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    It originated with me. I am a convert into the Church, my faith in the Person of the Lord Jesus came from before I affiliated with any Church at all. It originated from Him, so while I do believe my Church to be true (I wouldn't be here otherwise) I would not be devastated by it not being true.
     
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  7. idea

    idea Question Everything

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    If you had grown up in a non-Christian country, or in a time period without access to the Bible or other scripture, do you think you would still have the same beliefs?
     
  8. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I wrote about the leaving aspect in some earlier thread.

    Truth is not a collection of facts. So for the truth to be expressed in different practices in different places and times is not an issue for me.

    From the news and for some, drastic changes do cause people to leave religious organizations.
     
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  9. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    No, for "faith comes through hearing." St. Paul makes this point also:

    "How then will they call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in him about whom they have not heard? And how will they hear about him without one who preaches to them? And how will they preach, unless they are sent?"

    So if I had not heard I find it extremely doubtful that I would have believed. If I were in a non-Christian maybe if I had the internet (hearing again), I have met a lot people who are secretly Christians in a Muslim country for instance, but I think it would be less likely.
     
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  10. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    You have been through the wringer! Its not easy uprooting multiple times.
     
  11. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I admire any such institution which has the humility to admit errors. "We could be wrong." is so difficult to admit, but its the only way forward without ignoring all faults and without letting wounds get infected.

    Therefore what would make me leave and keeps me away are sermons with vitriol or warnings about other ministries and other churches such as: "Most Christians aren't as fortunate as we are to have the bible preached like we do" and "Unlike a lot of places we here preach the whole gospel" and "...we've been blessed here with the truth.." and "...many such ministries have fallen into deceit" and "many churches have turned into nothing but social clubs!" etc.

    There is no end of this in sermonizing, because its how you make the big bucks in ministry. Scare your flock, especially the younger people. Make other ministries and christians not in your church look unfortunate. Do it with your side comments whenever people are just barely paying attention, when they are not thinking critically. Criticize by humbly warning and by being grateful for what you have that other churches don't. Then in your prayers, openings and closings make yourself seem humble and compliment the congregation. Always complement the congregation. Make everyone afraid to leave or embarrassed to leave, but make them feel good about themselves for coming to church. You know, spread the net for their feet. So that is what would make me leave any church.
     
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  12. idea

    idea Question Everything

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    Would a religion which admits faults, changes doctrine, and does not claim to know anything provide stability and a sense of security? What benefits of following such a group would there be?
     
  13. idea

    idea Question Everything

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    Does your belief system allow just and equal rewards for all considering different educational environments? *For example, it would not be just or loving to hold a child who had no formal education to the same testing standards as children from a privileged background).
     
  14. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    Yes. There are several principles related to this in Scripture and Church teaching.

    Jesus said to the Samaritan woman "you worship what you do not know but we worship what we do know." Likewise the Church teaches the same concerning Muslims, Jews, and other monotheists. They truly worship God along with us even though in our opinion they have false ideas about God, and God truly does respond to them.

    St. Paul said "whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, although they do not have the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts one after another accusing or even defending them," likewise the Church recognizes the absolute primacy of conscience in moral judgment (and the judgment of God), people are to truly follow it and will be judged by what they know, those ignorant of the truth of the Gospel can still be saved, and in fact every human being has a concrete offer of salvation given to them, even those who reject the Church, even those who do not even know that it exists. Jesus also said "if you were blind, you would have no sin. But since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains," which elucidates the principle of knowledge being a very relevant factor in judgment.

    In general, yes. God is impartial and judges all according to their specific conditions, and this was recognized even from the beginning ages of the Church. St. Justin Martyr (died 165AD) said: "But lest some should, without reason, and for the perversion of what we teach, maintain that we say that Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius, and subsequently, in the time of Pontius Pilate, taught what we say He taught; and should cry out against us as though all men who were born before Him were irresponsible — let us anticipate and solve the difficulty. We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them..."

    This also applies to those who are after Christ and do not know Him or who know Him but their rejection of Him is not accounted sin for some reason (which the Pope recognizes and teaches is possible and they can be saved).

    A long way to answer "yes" to your question, but yes. "To whom much is given much is required" and vice versa.
     
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  15. idea

    idea Question Everything

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    Do you think it is fair and loving for some to be given much, and others given confusion?
     
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    It's very simple.

    Any church of any religion and any denomination will lose its congregation if its congregation don't like the performance.

    Accommodate or perish.

    And any god who loses his her or its congregation is, supernaturally speaking, a dead duck.

    So (to take one example) now Yahweh doesn't like slavery, has given up human sacrifice, is getting to accept divorce (which is a bit rich considering [his] own divorce from Asherah two or three thousand years back) and even [his] homophobia is on the wane.

    Accommodate or perish!
     
  17. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    It’s possible that leaving one group makes it easier to leave another. For me it was the inconsistency.
    I could never be part of an organization, church or group that claimed to exclusively have the truth or be the only way to God, because I now know that Jesus Christ alone is the Savior and there is no other mediator. Believers in Christ compose His Body all over the world.
     
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  18. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    No, it’s not easy, but truth has been more important to me than group affiliation. Finally, I found that Jesus was enough because He is the truth, the way and the life...
    I have since been involved with various churches, but they don’t claim to be... “the true church or exclusive way to God “ because it is acknowledged that Christ Alone is sufficient.
     
  19. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    I think that it is outright impossible for one to consider the Providence of God under this aspect, but inasmuch as all God does is loving for He is love then yes it is.

    "What then shall we say? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For to Moses he says, 'I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I have compassion.' Consequently therefore, it does not depend on the one who wills or on the one who runs, but on God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I have raised you up, so that I may demonstrate my power in you, and so that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Consequently therefore, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, and he hardens whomever he wishes.

    "Therefore you will say to me, 'Why then does he still find fault? For who has resisted his will? On the contrary, O man, who are you who answers back to God? Will what is molded say to the one who molded it, 'Why did you make me like this'? Or does the potter not have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump a vessel that is for honorable use and one that is for ordinary use? And what if God, wanting to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And he did so in order that he could make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory, us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"
     
  20. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    There are religions which claim not to know anything and are heavily philosophical, but I don't know how to answer your question about them. I don't know what benefits follow from claiming to not know anything. How do they rear their children? I don't know if the religions help with that. Do they help society progress? I don't know. Stability? Security? I don't know.

    I think that a revealed religion would benefit from not claiming to know everything perfectly and that it is the illusion of perfection which undermines revealed religions. I gather this only from my limited background and have not been Catholic or LDS or JW. I've been Charismatic, Baptist, Christadelphian. I visited the quakers for a time, too. Actually I'm expert at arguing from the NT that no one should claim perfectly revealed religion. Its almost as useful as being good at thumb wrestling, but I am good at it.
     
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