Chance

[Cockadoodledoo]

I believe we are descendants of a process fostered by intelligent beings.

Who are the intelligent beings and where did they come from, and how did they come into existence?

 

[George-ananda]

Who are the intelligent beings and where did they come from, and how did they come into existence?

I believe we live in a universe with realms/planes of relative reality and that there are a myriad of entities in the universe. Some of these entities get involved with the progress of physical life and human life (nature spirits, so-called non-terrestrials, etc.)

As to how did they come into existence; this gets into my beliefs that consciousness is ultimately ONE and the only thing that is real and it is ultimately Consciousness that creates this reality. A ray of the One consciousness animates all living finite beings on the physical as well as the super-physical planes of reality.

 

[PureX]

Atoms move and combine to form other molecules.
Molecules likewise combine with atoms or other molecules.
Chance means some of the molecules will be self-replicating,
I.e.. they form copies of themselves.
But mistakes are sometimes made, leading to......
Mutations of the self-replicating molecules.

So in this world today there must exist the descendants of the self-replicating molecules,
Assuming they didn't die off.

The question is.......

Are we the descendants of Adam and Eve, or
The descendants of the self-replicating molecules?

We need to clarify.

Chance creates the constant opportunity for such combinations to occur, but it is the limitation of chance that allows some of those combination to "stick". Molecules did not become self-replicating simply by endless chance encounters and combinations. They became self-replicating because of the "rules" (limitations) governing those encounters and combinations. And those "rules" have been governing every chance encounter and combination in the physical universe since the first instant of it's existence.

Chance is a component of existence as we experience it, but existence as we know it could not have occurred by chance, alone. Nothing buy endless chaos could occur by chance, alone. In fact, chance, itself, becomes a meaningless concept within the ideal of limitless chaos.

 

[sun rise]

Adam & Eve stand for the first humans to achieve self awareness and a sense of morality.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Atoms move and combine to form other molecules.
Molecules likewise combine with atoms or other molecules.
Chance means some of the molecules will be self-replicating,
I.e.. they form copies of themselves.
But mistakes are sometimes made, leading to......
Mutations of the self-replicating molecules.

So in this world today there must exist the descendants of the self-replicating molecules,
Assuming they didn't die off.

The question is.......

Are we the descendants of Adam and Eve, or
The descendants of the self-replicating molecules?

common decent, and descending from a single cell to a human being, through changes all occurring by pure blind chance, ... is a different kettle of fish

It's not impossible to play 5 royal flushes in a row by chance either, it's just not the best explanation for that observation..

 

[Cockadoodledoo]

common decent, and descending from a single cell to a human being, through changes all occurring by pure blind chance, ... is a different kettle of fish

It's not impossible to play 5 royal flushes in a row by chance either, it's just not the best explanation for that observation..

Once a self replicating structure comes into existence that makes mistakes in it's copying, that perhaps could be explained by pure chance (I'm guessing), but as the structure becomes more complex (because the mistakes improves the structure), other forces come into play....consider the formation of a mind.

GIven enough packs of cards and enough time, 12 royal flushes doesn't seem extreme.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Once a self replicating structure comes into existence that makes mistakes in it's copying, that perhaps could be explained by pure chance (I'm guessing), but as the structure becomes more complex (because the mistakes improves the structure), other forces come into play....consider the formation of a mind.

GIven enough packs of cards and enough time, 12 royal flushes doesn't seem extreme.

I don't remember the math off-hand, but I believe just 3 or 4 royal flushes in a row, gives a probability less than ONE in a number greater than all the stars in the universe...

So in practice, if you work in the fraud dept at a Casino, you don't put this down to luck! Unless you can utterly rule out cheating to an impossible degree, cheating is the more probable explanation, right?

There are just so many possible outcomes that do NOT get a royal flush, but I think this is selling life a little short, there are far more ways NOT to produce sentient beings, the only means we know of by which the universe can literally ponder it's own existence...

I think there is probably some cheating going on here!

 

[Cockadoodledoo]

I don't remember the math off-hand, but I believe just 3 or 4 royal flushes in a row, gives a probability less than ONE in a number greater than all the stars in the universe...

So in practice, if you work in the fraud dept at a Casino, you don't put this down to luck! Unless you can utterly rule out cheating to an impossible degree, cheating is the more probable explanation, right?

There are just so many possible outcomes that do NOT get a royal flush, but I think this is selling life a little short, there are far more ways NOT to produce sentient beings, the only means we know of by which the universe can literally ponder it's own existence...

I think there is probably some cheating going on here!

Perhaps time travellers shuffled the pack!

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Perhaps time travellers shuffled the pack!

If it's that or blind chance, my money is on your theory!

 

[LukeS]

I see Adam and Eve true religiously, but am not sure s to is literalness, and science of evolution a corroborated theory, rather than certified fact.

 

[LuisDantas]

Are we the descendants of Adam and Eve, or
The descendants of the self-replicating molecules?

The second.

 

[LuisDantas]

If there was no God it would surely have to be, in the beginning, blind chance (unless time travellers gave a helping hand).

That dichotomy is not quite true. The behavior of molecules is not "blind", but informed by the properties of the environment they find themselves at.

You may attribute self-organization in nature to a divine will, or you may not. But it does exist.

 

[Looncall]

If there was no God it would surely have to be, in the beginning, blind chance (unless time travellers gave a helping hand).

The universe has properties, including the regularities of chemistry. Your statement is incorrect, since the behaviour of matter is constrained by those regularities.

The desperation of believers in justifying their superstitions is becoming ludicrous.

 

[Looncall]

Are Adam and Eve the descendants of the self-replicating molecules?

If not, why do we have the similarity between self-replicating molecules, mutating down through the ages, and the mechanism from which we 'descend' from Adam and Eve?

Come, now. The Adam and Eve story is a myth cooked up by ignorant savages during the ages of humanity's ignorance. It never happened.

It is still around because it is included in texts that were fossilized before the rise of accurate knowledge.

 

[Sanzbir]

Molecules likewise combine with atoms or other molecules.
Chance means some of the molecules will be self-replicating,

The second does not follow from the first. I believe in evolution, but this presented chain of events does not directly follow.

 

[Polymath257]

Atoms move and combine to form other molecules.
Molecules likewise combine with atoms or other molecules.
Chance means some of the molecules will be self-replicating,

Not quite. The ability to self-replicate is not simply a matter of chance. For example, without carbon atoms, it seems very unlikely that self-replication would be possible.

I.e.. they form copies of themselves.
But mistakes are sometimes made, leading to......
Mutations of the self-replicating molecules.

Another terminological issue: the concept of a 'mistake' means there is a 'intention'. That is simply not the case in this context. Molecules follow the rules of physics and chemistry.

So in this world today there must exist the descendants of the self-replicating molecules,
Assuming they didn't die off.

And it is reasonably likely that some lines of self-replicators did die off.

The question is.......

Are we the descendants of Adam and Eve, or
The descendants of the self-replicating molecules?

Adam and Eve are a myth. There were no such individuals.

I'm more inclined to think that the first self-replicators were not just single molecules, but rather collections of molecules inside a spherical lipid layer.

But, guess what? We *are* self-replicating collections of molecules. No need to consider ancestry for this.

 

[gnostic]

Adam & Eve stand for the first humans to achieve self awareness and a sense of morality.

Which is speculative and baseless.

Do you have something to back this up?

 

[sun rise]

Which is speculative and baseless.

Do you have something to back this up?

If you mean have others come to this conclusion or one very close to it here are three with two cut/paste examples

But just as Prometheus delivered stolen fire to man, so Eve, and the serpent, delivered man into self-consciousness, setting him up, were it not for his short lifespan, as rival to God. At the same time, man’s self-consciousness removed him from nature into a life of toil, doubt, fear, guilt, shame, blame, enmity, loneliness, and frailty—and the product of this separation, the fruit and the flower of this exile, is, of course, culture.
The Meaning of Adam and Eve

Adam and Eve: The Story of Human Consciousness

He emphasises that in the allegory of the first Man, Adam, the human spirit entered incarnation and although thus encased in flesh, was totally ignorant of life's experiences. The Real Meaning of the Story of Adam and Eve

 

[gnostic]

If you mean have others come to this conclusion or one very close to it here are three with two cut/paste examples

But just as Prometheus delivered stolen fire to man, so Eve, and the serpent, delivered man into self-consciousness, setting him up, were it not for his short lifespan, as rival to God. At the same time, man’s self-consciousness removed him from nature into a life of toil, doubt, fear, guilt, shame, blame, enmity, loneliness, and frailty—and the product of this separation, the fruit and the flower of this exile, is, of course, culture.
The Meaning of Adam and Eve

Adam and Eve: The Story of Human Consciousness

He emphasises that in the allegory of the first Man, Adam, the human spirit entered incarnation and although thus encased in flesh, was totally ignorant of life's experiences. The Real Meaning of the Story of Adam and Eve

These are two quotes are just more speculative analysis to find meaning to the story of Adam and Eve.

You can go all Freudian or all Campbell-Jungian on me with the aspects or psyche of Adam or Eve, and there are literally thousands of possible interpretations to the story, where we can associate different meanings, but at the end of the day, they are all just speculations of these characters.

And the thing is that these characters are mythological in nature. There are no evidences as to if they were real people. All we have is a story of them in a book written by various authors of different time, where it was piece together some times in the mid-1st millennium BCE.

Don't get me wrong, sunrise. I actually love myths, legends and folklore, and to me, ancient storytelling is the pinnacle of man's imagination.

To me, it doesn't matter if the stories are historical or not, but I am very concern, when people today, confused these stories with realities.

People should know that serpent or donkey can't talk. Or that humans can live for 900+ years. Or that the humans have only been around for 6000 or 10,000 years (depending on which YEC you are talking about). Or that there were global flood.

But getting back to your point.

Never mind that Adam and Eve didn't exist, but to say they were first humans to be conscious, is a bold, but empty claims, when there are no evidences to say a Cro-Magnon family weren't conscious of their existence, 30,000 years ago or more.

The Lascaux cave paintings in Dordogne, France, where it depicted many images of wildlife, demonstrate they were very conscious of their surrounding.

Sorry, but those two quotes you have provided are very subjective and based on mythological figures, don't really hold that much weights, unless we only stick to analysis of imaginary literary figures and not of real people.