Challenge to Creationists: Ichneumon Wasp

[InChrist]

No, I do not. I am merely more moral than people that follow a god that advocates slavery, genocide, homophobia, misogyny and a host of other ills.

You are superimposing those moral evils on God by your inadequate reading and understanding of the scriptures, which do not show God to be as you have created in your imagination.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are superimposing those moral evils on God by your inadequate reading and understanding of the scriptures, which do not show God to be as you have created in your imagination.

Not true at all. In fact you make one enormous error that I do not make in approaching the Bible. As a result you end up making the claim that God is a liar, though you probably do not realize it.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

You are just repeating yourself and not answering my question. Why must a design like this be called cruel? On what basis did you decide it is cruel?

... the basic definition of the word "cruel"? Perhaps you'd like to explain any possible way it could be considered anything else, assuming it was deliberately designed?

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

Aside from the mountains of evidence for evolution, I often struggle to understand how anyone can believe in an intelligent and benevolent god who designed species when reading about phenomena like this. The Ichneumon wasp is a species of wasp that bores a hole into a caterpillar in order to lay its eggs inside of the caterpillar. The wasp also injects the caterpillar so that it is paralyzed, yet still feels pain. The wasps then hatch inside of the caterpillar and eat it alive from the inside out, while the caterpillar can do nothing. Now, unless God were an evil sadist, there is no way that he would design a process like this. This type of process is simply incompatible with the existence of an intelligent and benevolent designer. Yet, when viewed from a naturalistic perspective, it makes sense. Natural selection produces results that can turn out to be incredibly beautiful and give the illusion of benevolent design, and it can also produce horrible, nasty results like this that give the illusion of a cruel designer. In reality, Natural Selection is blind and mindless, and it all makes sense when we consider this. As Dawkins put it, "Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent."

Ichneumonidae - Wikipedia

Evolution is God's favorite toy.

 

[ecco]

And, pray tell, where is this universal fount of human morality of which you speak?

"Morality" is the result of 100,000 years of human experiences. The people who codified this and wrote it down when writing became available are not the ultimate source.

 

[ecco]

No, it means that omniscient can know both potential futures simultaneously as true.

No. If an entity is omniscient then, by definition, that entity knows the future, not potential futures.

I know what you are trying to say, but you are ignoring the fact that God can't be both omniscient and for man to have free will. It is a self contradictory belief.

That is a self contradictory belief only within the limited capabilities of human minds.
A true omni-all entity can allow total free will and yet know the outcome forehand.

 

[ecco]

This is also why most Christians do not read Genesis literally. They do not believe in an evil God.

If people pick and choose what parts of "the True Word of God" to believe and what parts to write off, it makes "the True Word of God" irrelevant and, in my opinion, those people hypocrites.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If people pick and choose what parts of "the True Word of God" to believe and what parts to write off, it makes "the True Word of God" irrelevant and, in my opinion, those people hypocrites.

Shhhhh. They don't like to admit that.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I think lacking trust in a good and loving Creator for wisdom and rather listening to and following the lead of the devil caused the damage.

But this scenario has nothing to do with humans.

 

[viole]

As a naturalist, what is causing you to say that this is a cruel process? If you say it is because of your morals, you will have to explain to me where your morals come from, according to your naturalistic worldview.

Mmh, not really. We naturalists do not see morality in nature.

The question is to you guys. And you are not naturalists, I suppose.

Ciao

- viole

 

[syo]

Aside from the mountains of evidence for evolution, I often struggle to understand how anyone can believe in an intelligent and benevolent god who designed species when reading about phenomena like this. The Ichneumon wasp is a species of wasp that bores a hole into a caterpillar in order to lay its eggs inside of the caterpillar. The wasp also injects the caterpillar so that it is paralyzed, yet still feels pain. The wasps then hatch inside of the caterpillar and eat it alive from the inside out, while the caterpillar can do nothing. Now, unless God were an evil sadist, there is no way that he would design a process like this. This type of process is simply incompatible with the existence of an intelligent and benevolent designer. Yet, when viewed from a naturalistic perspective, it makes sense. Natural selection produces results that can turn out to be incredibly beautiful and give the illusion of benevolent design, and it can also produce horrible, nasty results like this that give the illusion of a cruel designer. In reality, Natural Selection is blind and mindless, and it all makes sense when we consider this. As Dawkins put it, "Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent."

Ichneumonidae - Wikipedia

isn't that selfless sacrifice? the caterpillar could be jesus in disguise.

 

[Audie]

You are superimposing those moral evils on God by your inadequate reading and understanding of the scriptures, which do not show God to be as you have created in your imagination.

Every reader of the "bible" creates in his own imagination
a version of "god". And some of them have the pride
and arrogance to think that what they choose to see is
the real thing. Droll, there being no "real thing".

 

[InChrist]

But this scenario has nothing to do with humans.

According to the scriptures it does.

 

[Audie]

According to the scriptures it does.

So?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

According to the scriptures it does.

Is this species of wasp and caterpillar mentioned in the Bible? I think not.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

isn't that selfless sacrifice? the caterpillar could be jesus in disguise.

Well, that's an original response, I'll grant you that. But the difference is that it's non-consensual with the caterpillar.

 

[nPeace]

Aside from the mountains of evidence for evolution, I often struggle to understand how anyone can believe in an intelligent and benevolent god who designed species when reading about phenomena like this. The Ichneumon wasp is a species of wasp that bores a hole into a caterpillar in order to lay its eggs inside of the caterpillar. The wasp also injects the caterpillar so that it is paralyzed, yet still feels pain. The wasps then hatch inside of the caterpillar and eat it alive from the inside out, while the caterpillar can do nothing. Now, unless God were an evil sadist, there is no way that he would design a process like this. This type of process is simply incompatible with the existence of an intelligent and benevolent designer. Yet, when viewed from a naturalistic perspective, it makes sense. Natural selection produces results that can turn out to be incredibly beautiful and give the illusion of benevolent design, and it can also produce horrible, nasty results like this that give the illusion of a cruel designer. In reality, Natural Selection is blind and mindless, and it all makes sense when we consider this. As Dawkins put it, "Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent."

Ichneumonidae - Wikipedia

Sounds to me like one confused bug. Maybe the caterpillar smells like its favorite fruit.

The theory is that the wasp is attracted to the chemicals released by the plant being eaten by the caterpillar.
I am no scientist nor expert, but I have a theory.

Why?
Why Do Whales and Dolphins Beach Themselves?
Why Do Whales Beach Themselves?

...the event has brought to light the puzzle marine biologists face in trying to determine what causes mass whale strandings.

Why do Many Animals Seem to Commit Suicide?
Jatinga - Wikipedia

Could the poor wasp be affected by a world that no longers conforms to the laws of nature brcause the more intelligent creatures made a mess of it by rejecting their creator.

A fertilized female wasp starts her colony by laying eggs in cell-like pods. Larvae hatches from the eggs and are fed by the female.

There is also the possibility of genetic interference which may not necessarily be deliberate, although that's not out of the question ( Africanized bee).

However, there is evidence that chemicals can alter genes.
Epigenetics and environmental chemicals
Environmental Influences on Gene Expression

Internal and external environmental factors, like gender and temperature, influence gene expression.

There apparently can be more than one explanation for this.
This evidently isn't evidence of bad design.

Rather a long history of change, for which we are seeing the results.
The time will come when God - the creator restores his creation.
Revelation 11:18

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sounds to me like one confused bug. Maybe the caterpillar smells like its favorite fruit.

The theory is that the wasp is attracted to the chemicals released by the plant being eaten by the caterpillar.
I am no scientist nor expert, but I have a theory.

Why?
Why Do Whales and Dolphins Beach Themselves?
Why Do Whales Beach Themselves?

Why do Many Animals Seem to Commit Suicide?
Jatinga - Wikipedia

Could the poor wasp be affected by a world that no longers conforms to the laws of nature brcause the more intelligent creatures made a mess of it by rejecting their creator.

A fertilized female wasp starts her colony by laying eggs in cell-like pods. Larvae hatches from the eggs and are fed by the female.

There is also the possibility of genetic interference which may not necessarily be deliberate, although that's not out of the question ( Africanized bee).

However, there is evidence that chemicals can alter genes.
Epigenetics and environmental chemicals
Environmental Influences on Gene Expression


There apparently can be more than one explanation for this.
This evidently isn't evidence of bad design.

Rather a long history of change, for which we are seeing the results.
The time will come when God - the creator restores his creation.
Revelation 11:18

Can you demonstrate that?

 

[nPeace]

Can you demonstrate that?

Demonstrate what?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Demonstrate what?

The huge bolded part.