Challenge to Creationists: Ichneumon Wasp

[Subduction Zone]

So when Adam and Eve, who had been give dominion over the earth, sinned and departed from God's wisdom, their dominion brought destructive damage upon the whole earth.

Now you are just making stuff up.

Lucky for you that we know the Adam and Eve story is a myth. That means that God is not necessarily the evil being as portrayed in Genesis. This is also why most Christians do not read Genesis literally. They do not believe in an evil God.

 

[InChrist]

I know what you are trying to say, but you are ignoring the fact that God can't be both omniscient and for man to have free will. It is a self contradictory belief.

Why? I don't see it as contradictory at all.

 

[InChrist]

Now you are just making stuff up.

Lucky for you that we know the Adam and Eve story is a myth. That means that God is not necessarily the evil being as portrayed in Genesis. This is also why most Christians do not read Genesis literally. They do not believe in an evil God.

Not making it up. The scriptures say it, also portray God as GOOD. I believe the scriptures.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why? I don't see it as contradictory at all.

That is merely cognitive dissonance on your part. When one's cherished beliefs are shown to be false the brain uses this as a defense mechanism. The logic is simple and straight forward. You would have to let go of your fear to understand probably.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not making it up. The scriptures say it, also portray God as GOOD. I believe the scriptures.

Where does it do that? I have seen that the creation was supposedly good, that does not mean that God is good. And the scriptures have been shown to be wrong time after time if one reads them literally. Why on Earth trust them?

 

[InChrist]

That is merely cognitive dissonance on your part. When one's cherished beliefs are shown to be false the brain uses this as a defense mechanism. The logic is simple and straight forward. You would have to let go of your fear to understand probably.

I did let go of my fear(s) when I trusted in Jesus and understood and received such great love...

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18

 

[InChrist]

Where does it do that? I have seen that the creation was supposedly good, that does not mean that God is good. And the scriptures have been shown to be wrong time after time if one reads them literally. Why one Earth trust them?

God's goodness, along with His holiness, righteousness, justice, love, etc is expressed throughout the scriptures...

“Give thanks to the LORD, for He is good; His love endures forever” (Psalm 107:1; cf. 1 Chronicles 16:34; Psalm 118:1; 136).
What does it mean that God is good?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I did let go of my fear(s) when I trusted in Jesus and understood and received such great love...

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18

Your inability to reason logically tells us that that is not the case. You need to face up to the fact that Jesus may have just been a man and when you die you die. That concept tends to scare the bejeesus into people.

 

[Subduction Zone]

God's goodness, along with His holiness, righteousness, justice, love, etc is expressed throughout the scriptures...

“Give thanks to the LORD, for He is good; His love endures forever” (Psalm 107:1; cf. 1 Chronicles 16:34; Psalm 118:1; 136).
What does it mean that God is good?

Okay, so it does say that God is good in parts of it. Of course that only tells us that the Bible once again contradicts itself.

 

[InChrist]

Okay, so it does say that God is good in parts of it. Of course that only tells us that the Bible once again contradicts itself.

Is that all you can do... repeat, Repeat, REPEAT- "the Bible contradicts itself" ? Sounds like a broken record, not that too many people have records anymore. Just because you say it over and over doesn't necessarily make it true.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is that all you can do... repeat, Repeat, REPEAT- "the Bible contradicts itself" ? Sounds like a broken record, not that too make people have records anymore. Just because you say it over and over doens't necessarily make it true.

That is because you won't admit to the obvious. Why does that fact scare you so much? You gave an example of one. The Bible portrays God as evil and yet it calls him good.

 

[InChrist]

Your inability to reason logically tells us that that is not the case. You need to face up to the fact that Jesus may have just been a man and when you die you die. That concept tends to scare the bejeesus into people.

Jesus demonstrated before too many witnesses, many receptive and many hostile, abilities which no mere man could do, including His resurrection from the dead. I am not scared, If Jesus is real and offers eternal life as I believe, then I have eternal life. If not and He is only a man and I simply die, I lose nothing.

 

[InChrist]

That is because you won't admit to the obvious. Why does that fact scare you so much? You gave an example of one. The Bible portrays God as evil and yet it calls him good.

Your perception is that the Bible portrays God as evil. I see no such portrayal. I see God as good and I know God as Good in my life. You can call it cognitive dissonance or whatever you like, makes no difference to me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Jesus demonstrated before too many witnesses, many receptive and many hostile, abilities which no mere man could do, including His resurrection from the dead. I am not scared, If Jesus is real and offers eternal life as I believe, then I have eternal life. If not and He is only a man and I simply die, I lose nothing.

The problem with that tale is that none of the New Testament stories are eyewitness evidence. They are stories passed down for over a generation. And your posts betray you when you claim not to be afraid. And you have so much invested in the Jesus story you can't properly judge what you lose if it is false.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your perception is that the Bible portrays God as evil. I see no such portrayal. I see God as good and I know God as Good in my life. You can call it cognitive dissonance or whatever you like, makes no difference to me.

That is because I am a moral person.

 

[Astrophile]

Aside from the mountains of evidence for evolution, I often struggle to understand how anyone can believe in an intelligent and benevolent god who designed species when reading about phenomena like this. The Ichneumon wasp is a species of wasp that bores a hole into a caterpillar in order to lay its eggs inside of the caterpillar. The wasp also injects the caterpillar so that it is paralyzed, yet still feels pain. The wasps then hatch inside of the caterpillar and eat it alive from the inside out, while the caterpillar can do nothing. Now, unless God were an evil sadist, there is no way that he would design a process like this. This type of process is simply incompatible with the existence of an intelligent and benevolent designer. Yet, when viewed from a naturalistic perspective, it makes sense. Natural selection produces results that can turn out to be incredibly beautiful and give the illusion of benevolent design, and it can also produce horrible, nasty results like this that give the illusion of a cruel designer. In reality, Natural Selection is blind and mindless, and it all makes sense when we consider this. As Dawkins put it, "Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent."

Ichneumonidae - Wikipedia

'All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.

Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.'

With thanks to Monty Python.

 

[InChrist]

The problem with that tale is that none of the New Testament stories are eyewitness evidence. They are stories passed down for over a generation. And your posts betray you when you claim not to be afraid. And you have so much invested in the Jesus story you can't properly judge what you lose if it is false.

Incorrect, the claim that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts is unreasonable and does not hold up to scrutiny. If you are serious concerning your claim about the gospels and care about accuracy at all, then you will listen to this entire lecture which goes over the intricate details which verify that the gospels were indeed written by eyewitnesses.

"The gospels had just these kinds of eyewitnesses, as can be seen from the evidence of the text itself, which ironically, many critics claim to go by. For example, there are sworn eyewitness testimonies from most of the New Testament writers, which indicate that they were intending to transmit accurate history rather than conjured-up folktales:

• “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty” (2 Peter 1:16).
• “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.” (1 John 1:1)
• “That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us, and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:3).
• “And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe” (John 19:35).
• “This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.” (John 21:24)
• “Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea” (Luke 3:1).
• “I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely, for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him, for this thing was not done in a corner” (Acts 26:25-26).
• “Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved by God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know” (Acts 2:22).
• This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we are all witnesses.” (Acts 2:32)
• “For we are not as many, which corrupt the Word of God; but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ” (2 Corinthians 2:17).
• “After that he {Jesus} was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve. After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present…” (1 Corinthians 15:5-6)

So the evidence of the text would make these writers liars, if they were just making up folktales. Remember, most of them were persecuted and/or martyred, and martyrs make very poor liars!"
Evidence that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts ‹ The Bible Can Be Proven

 

[InChrist]

That is because I am a moral person.

Do You Suffer From Illusions Of Moral Superiority?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Incorrect, the claim that the gospels are not eyewitness accounts is unreasonable and does not hold up to scrutiny. If you are serious concerning your claim about the gospels and care about accuracy at all, then you will listen to this entire lecture which goes over the intricate details which verify that the gospels were indeed written by eyewitnesses.

"The gospels had just these kinds of eyewitnesses, as can be seen from the evidence of the text itself, which ironically, many critics claim to go by. For example, there are sworn eyewitness testimonies from most of the New Testament writers, which indicate that they were intending to transmit accurate history rather than conjured-up folktales:

• “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty” (2 Peter 1:16).
• “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.” (1 John 1:1)
• “That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us, and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:3).
• “And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe” (John 19:35).
• “This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.” (John 21:24)
• “Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea” (Luke 3:1).
• “I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely, for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him, for this thing was not done in a corner” (Acts 26:25-26).
• “Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved by God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know” (Acts 2:22).
• This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we are all witnesses.” (Acts 2:32)
• “For we are not as many, which corrupt the Word of God; but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ” (2 Corinthians 2:17).
• “After that he {Jesus} was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve. After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present…” (1 Corinthians 15:5-6)

So the evidence of the text would make these writers liars, if they were just making up folktales. Remember, most of them were persecuted and/or martyred, and martyrs make very poor liars!"
Evidence that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts ‹ The Bible Can Be Proven

One lone scholar is not too impressive. What has he written that went through the equivalence of peer review? He appears to be cherry picking and using circular logic at best. Worst of all that one gospel source he quotes is John the last of the gospels written. The one that is least likely to have any eye witnesses. Acts was written by the author of Luke, who himself admitted in the beginning of Luke that it was not an eyewitness account.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do You Suffer From Illusions Of Moral Superiority?

No, I do not. I am merely more moral than people that follow a god that advocates slavery, genocide, homophobia, misogyny and a host of other ills.