Challenge: Make A Government Run Without Taxes

[Samantha Rinne]

I suspect that most of the people who exit the education system today, either through college or university, are so indoctrinated that they are unable to function independent of dependence on a strong government. That is to say, they can't even think of people being alive without such thing as taxes and welfare schemes.

Which is why I suspect many of you will shrink from this challenge, and declare that it is impossible and/or I am stupid.

Actually, I have already devised two ways of government working without taxes:

1. The government does not spend, in general. Instead, they come up with ways to coordinate the citizens making their own reward at zero cost (example: they promise farmers and hunters that if they share their food they will have all gold and other precious metals or gems to buy what they need, then promise miners that if they mine and sell their gems to the government they get food. Both parties get to keep some of what they produce, but are encouraged to switch, using the state as a middle man)

2. A state business that has high demand for its services. This makes it so people can actually choose to give money to the government, rather than them acting like robbers. It also means the government is responsible for its own income.

This isn't just a choice of these two. Use your minds to invent a third or fourth (etc) option.

If you view taxes as necessary, at least try to figure our how to get rid of income and property taxes. Income tax diminishes ambition, and property tax makes homeowners literally at risk of losing their homes.

 

[BSM1]

I suspect that most of the people who exit the education system today, either through college or university, are so indoctrinated that they are unable to function independent of dependence on a strong government. That is to say, they can't even think of people being alive without such thing as taxes and welfare schemes.

Which is why I suspect many of you will shrink from this challenge, and declare that it is impossible and/or I am stupid.

Actually, I have already devised two ways of government working without taxes:

1. The government does not spend, in general. Instead, they come up with ways to coordinate the citizens making their own reward at zero cost (example: they promise farmers and hunters that if they share their food they will have all gold and other precious metals or gems to buy what they need, then promise miners that if they mine and sell their gems to the government they get food. Both parties get to keep some of what they produce, but are encouraged to switch, using the state as a middle man)

2. A state business that has high demand for its services. This makes it so people can actually choose to give money to the government, rather than them acting like robbers. It also means the government is responsible for its own income.

This isn't just a choice of these two. Use your minds to invent a third or fourth (etc) option.

If you view taxes as necessary, at least try to figure our how to get rid of income and property taxes. Income tax diminishes ambition, and property tax makes homeowners literally at risk of losing their homes.

I think that you've overlooked the money it would take to run the bureaucracy that makes the promises in the first place. You would have to have some source of income besides what people would purchase from the government. Also, how could you possibly set up and maintain the infrastructure so this dream trading could be viable (not to mention getting folks to voluntarily let a highway run through their back yards). And let's not even talk about protecting the populous from invaders. You will always need some type of governing entity to guarantee the success of any society. However, the question is always how much control society will allow that entity to have.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Tax-Free Countries

• The Bahamas. The Bahamas imposes no income tax on its residents and receives most of its revenue from tourism and its robust offshore industry. ...
• The British Virgin Islands. ...
• Brunei. ...
• The Cayman Islands. ...
• Monaco. ...
• Oman. ...
• Turks and Caicos. ...
• Vanuatu.

So there are already countries who are tax free countries.

 

[Laika]

2. A state business that has high demand for its services. This makes it so people can actually choose to give money to the government, rather than them acting like robbers. It also means the government is responsible for its own income.

This is basically the model for taxation in North Korea. Officially, people do not pay taxes and income tax was abolished in 1974, so the government derives it's revenue from a "turnover tax" (applied to the supply chain within and between companies rather than the consumer) because all the companies are government owned.

So, the world's last Stalinist Dictatorship is also the Libertarian's Tax Free paradise. Kinda neat...

Taxation in North Korea - Wikipedia

 

[MNoBody]

australia came out of WWI with no war debt, because they did not sign up with the central rothchild banking cartel...... they are a good example and they used the fiat system of "money" to pull it off.....
every other country who took the credit bait, came out of the war without the pinkslip to their land, so to speak, cheated out of it by the private banking cartel.... who got you to accept their money for which you pay taxes as rent for the privilege of using their coupon system
you want reform....then that situation has to be reversed.
any talk of reform outside of that is vain

 

[dybmh]

I suspect that most of the people who exit the education system today, either through college or university, are so indoctrinated that they are unable to function independent of dependence on a strong government.

Well that's not very nice...

That is to say, they can't even think of people being alive without such thing as taxes and welfare schemes.

Schemes... bias much?

Which is why I suspect many of you will shrink from this challenge, and declare that it is impossible and/or I am stupid.

I would never!

Actually, I have already devised two ways of government working without taxes:

Oooo. Do tell.

1. The government does not spend, in general. Instead, they come up with ways to coordinate the citizens making their own reward at zero cost (example: they promise farmers and hunters that if they share their food they will have all gold and other precious metals or gems to buy what they need, then promise miners that if they mine and sell their gems to the government they get food. Both parties get to keep some of what they produce, but are encouraged to switch, using the state as a middle man)

Sorry, I don't think this would work at all? It's a barter system with the government as a middle man?

2. A state business that has high demand for its services. This makes it so people can actually choose to give money to the government, rather than them acting like robbers. It also means the government is responsible for its own income.

Come on... acting like robbers? The roads, bridges, fire protection, and police are services rendered...

This isn't just a choice of these two. Use your minds to invent a third or fourth (etc) option.

I'll be interested to see if someone else has any ideas...

If you view taxes as necessary, at least try to figure our how to get rid of income and property taxes. Income tax diminishes ambition, and property tax makes homeowners literally at risk of losing their homes.

It simply isn't true. Taxes don't limit ambition... However, I could be convinced that property taxes cause homeowners to lose their homes, if you can provide some evidence...

 

[Nakosis]

I suspect that most of the people who exit the education system today, either through college or university, are so indoctrinated that they are unable to function independent of dependence on a strong government. That is to say, they can't even think of people being alive without such thing as taxes and welfare schemes.

Which is why I suspect many of you will shrink from this challenge, and declare that it is impossible and/or I am stupid.

Actually, I have already devised two ways of government working without taxes:

1. The government does not spend, in general. Instead, they come up with ways to coordinate the citizens making their own reward at zero cost (example: they promise farmers and hunters that if they share their food they will have all gold and other precious metals or gems to buy what they need, then promise miners that if they mine and sell their gems to the government they get food. Both parties get to keep some of what they produce, but are encouraged to switch, using the state as a middle man)

2. A state business that has high demand for its services. This makes it so people can actually choose to give money to the government, rather than them acting like robbers. It also means the government is responsible for its own income.

This isn't just a choice of these two. Use your minds to invent a third or fourth (etc) option.

If you view taxes as necessary, at least try to figure our how to get rid of income and property taxes. Income tax diminishes ambition, and property tax makes homeowners literally at risk of losing their homes.

Maybe just have the government provide services which people only pay for if they use.
Licenses and fees. Go to public school, you pay a fee.

With taxes the government can use that money however they want. No guarantees they'll do anything of value with it except figure out some way to line their own pockets. This way you'd actually be getting something for the money you give to the government.

 

[PureX]

Maybe just have the government provide services which people only pay for if they use.
Licenses and fees. Go to public school, you pay a fee.

The logistics of this would be very expensive, and very time-consuming: paying a toll for every road we use, paying the cops for every call out, etc.,. And what about those who can't pay, but need those services? We just let them die?

With taxes the government can use that money however they want. No guarantees they'll do anything of value with it except figure out some way to line their own pockets. This way you'd actually be getting something for the money you give to the government.

Well, that's what elections are all about. WE THE PEOPLE are supposed to be overseeing how the government spends our tax money by throwing their sorry butts out of office when they try to squander it. But we're all too busy fighting over abortion and idiotic border walls to actually pay any attention to the nuts and bolts of government spending (which is exactly how they want to keep it).

 

[metis]

The government does not spend, in general.

Not true.

This makes it so people can actually choose to give money to the government, rather than them acting like robbers.

People vote for taxes, therefore the government is not "robbers".

It also means the government is responsible for its own income.

"We the people" are responsible for how the money is collected and how it gets spent.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'll be interested to see if someone else has any ideas...

I have one or two. Think of modern government as a symptom instead of the cause of problems. We've done well trying to treat this ongoing symptom. We've managed to implement a mostly functioning republic in large portions of the world. This is mostly been accomplished in spite of our nature. The spirit has somewhat overcome the flesh in this case, but it is an unstable victory and unsatisfactory in many ways.

1. Stop society depending upon farming and depending upon division of labor. These dependencies reinforce tribal thinking and stratification. We don't need to return to old ways at all. We forge a new basis for society. This is far easier than trying radical new governing methods and only requires certain technologies to be implemented. The governments will be changed by the new ways of living, without conflict and without sorrow. Make them unnecessary and inconvenient, so they can fade. The spirit wins.

2. Upgrade the human body and transport ability. What do humans always need? We always need shelter. Eliminate this need. We always need roads. Eliminate this necessity. It sounds hard but its far easier than trying to make 'Good' government.

3. Both 1 & 2. If 1 doesn't work or 2 doesn't work, combine them. Watch government disappear.

 

[Nakosis]

The logistics of this would be very expensive, and very time-consuming: paying a toll for every road we use, paying the cops for every call out, etc.,. And what about those who can't pay, but need those services? We just let them die?

Be a good neighbor, take care of family and friends. That's what we have charity orgs for.

Privatize security and roads. Pay just like we currently utilities.

Well, that's what elections are all about. WE THE PEOPLE are supposed to be overseeing how the government spends our tax money by throwing their sorry butts out of office when they try to squander it. But we're all too busy fighting over abortion and idiotic border walls to actually pay any attention to the nuts and bolts of government spending (which is exactly how they want to keep it).

Can't avoid politicians with vested interests. The trick is to manipulate people's feelings so they think you are doing them a favor. Also with the enforcement of government, they can make you pay whether you want to or not. Shareholders can always choose not to invest in a corporation. The government is one big corporation you have no choice except to pay into whether they are doing good or not.

 

[Nakosis]

Not true.

People vote for taxes, therefore the government is not "robbers".

"We the people" are responsible for how the money is collected and how it gets spent.

The government is more conmen. They lie about what they are going to use the taxes for. Unfortunately they are able to hide their misuse of tax money from the general public. The government acts as its own oversight and with a two party system like we have in the US they can always use the opposing party as the scapegoat.

 

[MNoBody]

people always have choice

 

[Thief]

I suspect that most of the people who exit the education system today, either through college or university, are so indoctrinated that they are unable to function independent of dependence on a strong government. That is to say, they can't even think of people being alive without such thing as taxes and welfare schemes.

Which is why I suspect many of you will shrink from this challenge, and declare that it is impossible and/or I am stupid.

Actually, I have already devised two ways of government working without taxes:

1. The government does not spend, in general. Instead, they come up with ways to coordinate the citizens making their own reward at zero cost (example: they promise farmers and hunters that if they share their food they will have all gold and other precious metals or gems to buy what they need, then promise miners that if they mine and sell their gems to the government they get food. Both parties get to keep some of what they produce, but are encouraged to switch, using the state as a middle man)

2. A state business that has high demand for its services. This makes it so people can actually choose to give money to the government, rather than them acting like robbers. It also means the government is responsible for its own income.

This isn't just a choice of these two. Use your minds to invent a third or fourth (etc) option.

If you view taxes as necessary, at least try to figure our how to get rid of income and property taxes. Income tax diminishes ambition, and property tax makes homeowners literally at risk of losing their homes.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

nothing more is needed

 

[Nakosis]

I suspect that most of the people who exit the education system today, either through college or university, are so indoctrinated that they are unable to function independent of dependence on a strong government. That is to say, they can't even think of people being alive without such thing as taxes and welfare schemes.

Which is why I suspect many of you will shrink from this challenge, and declare that it is impossible and/or I am stupid.

Actually, I have already devised two ways of government working without taxes:

1. The government does not spend, in general. Instead, they come up with ways to coordinate the citizens making their own reward at zero cost (example: they promise farmers and hunters that if they share their food they will have all gold and other precious metals or gems to buy what they need, then promise miners that if they mine and sell their gems to the government they get food. Both parties get to keep some of what they produce, but are encouraged to switch, using the state as a middle man)

People will usually only go out of their way to do something if they see a benefit to themselves in it. Quid pro quo ideally.

Unfortunately with governments since they general have the ability of enforcement there is no guarantee of quid pro quo.

The "government" ought to be a temporary group of mutually interested parties. Unfortunately we've a group of career politicians whose main interest is in getting reelected.

 

[Nakosis]

people always have choice

That choice is easily manipulated. Most easily by encouraging a state of fear.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is basically the model for taxation in North Korea. Officially, people do not pay taxes and income tax was abolished in 1974, so the government derives it's revenue from a "turnover tax" (applied to the supply chain within and between companies rather than the consumer) because all the companies are government owned.

So, the world's last Stalinist Dictatorship is also the Libertarian's Tax Free paradise. Kinda neat...

Taxation in North Korea - Wikipedia

Libertarian, eh?
When the government owns the means of production, I wouldn't
expect any need for taxation. It could just pay workers whatever
is left over after funding itself.
Sure, taxes are eliminated. But this is because the employer (ie,
government) never gives workers the money which would've been
paid as taxes the first place.
Add to this the level of authority needed for such a system, & we
find that "libertarian" is the last word I'd use to describe it.

 

[Nakosis]

Tax-Free Countries

• The Bahamas. The Bahamas imposes no income tax on its residents and receives most of its revenue from tourism and its robust offshore industry. ...
• The British Virgin Islands. ...
• Brunei. ...
• The Cayman Islands. ...
• Monaco. ...
• Oman. ...
• Turks and Caicos. ...
• Vanuatu.

So there are already countries who are tax free countries.

Why Are the Cayman Islands Considered a Tax Haven?

The Cayman Islands are one of the most well-known tax havens in the world. Unlike most countries, the Caymans don't have a corporate tax, making it an ideal place for multinational corporations to base subsidiary entities to shield some or all of their incomes from taxation.1

In addition to having no corporate tax, the Cayman Islands impose no direct taxes whatsoever on residents. They have no income tax, no property taxes, no capital gains taxes, no payroll taxes, and no withholding tax.1 They are therefore considered tax neutral.

Instead of earning revenue through direct taxation, the Caymans earn revenue via fees related to stay-over tourism and work permits, financial transactions, and import duties.2 Duty taxes are levied on most goods imported to the Caymans, at a rate of 22% to 27%. Some items, such as baby formula, are exempt from duty taxes, while other goods, such as automobiles, are taxed at a higher rate based on the value of the vehicle. For expensive cars, the duty tax rate can be as high as 42%.

 

[Shad]

Tax-Free Countries

• The Bahamas. The Bahamas imposes no income tax on its residents and receives most of its revenue from tourism and its robust offshore industry. ...
• The British Virgin Islands. ...
• Brunei. ...
• The Cayman Islands. ...
• Monaco. ...
• Oman. ...
• Turks and Caicos. ...
• Vanuatu.

So there are already countries who are tax free countries.

Those are still taxes.... All of those have nations have taxes still. You are equivocating.

 

[Nakosis]

Libertarian, eh?
When the government owns the means of production, I wouldn't
expect any need for taxation. It could just pay workers whatever
is left over after funding itself.
Sure, taxes are eliminated. But this is by never giving citizens
the money which would've been paid in the first place. Add to this
the level of authority needed for such a system, & "libertarian" is
the last word I'd use to describe it.

That's the only way I see socialism ever working by strongly eliminating person choice and freedoms. That's why I suspect such regimes usually become authoritarian dictatorships. A governmental body allowing only the "correct" choice to be made by it citizens with the power to enforce it. For your own good of course.