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Challenge for Theists (How you can convert me to your religion)

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
There was a short story many years ago about a mathematician that agreed to sell his soul to the devil if he would get a proof of Fermat's Last Theorem within 24 hours in return (this was well before 1994 when it was finally solved after 358 years).

The story mostly deals with the devil learning the different types of math that had been used to attack the problem up to that time. Ultimately, the time ran out and the devil had to admit defeat.

The last line was the devil saying he had an idea to try next.....

The Collatzs conjecture isn't as sexy as FLT was, but you might get a better bargain with someone who makes deals....

/E: Found it: "The Devil and Simon Flagg" by Arthur Porges.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
The ego is endless.

Why should God prove itself to us?
Why should God care what we believe about it?
What would God gain by our presuming it's existence?

On the other hand, what would we gain by believing in God's existence?

That depends on the kind of God we choose to believe in.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
The Collatz conjecture is a conjecture in mathematics that concerns a sequence defined as follows: start with any positive integer n. Then each term is obtained from the previous term as follows: if the previous term is even, the next term is one half the previous term. If the previous term is odd, the next term is 3 times the previous term plus 1. The conjecture is that no matter what value of n, the sequence will always reach 1.

The Challenge: Pray to your God for a proof/disproof of the conjecture. Post the proof/disproof here. If your god gives you a valid proof/disproof, I will believe in your god and convert to your religion.

Ask thou not for proof; for Lo, with proof,
there is no faith.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
God does not work that way. No one else can pray for proof for you or proof that would convince you. If you want proof you must seek God yourself, there is no go between. God desires a relationship with you personally and that you would seek Him directly to know of His existence or presence.

And you know coz god told you personally?
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
The Collatz conjecture is a conjecture in mathematics that concerns a sequence defined as follows: start with any positive integer n. Then each term is obtained from the previous term as follows: if the previous term is even, the next term is one half the previous term. If the previous term is odd, the next term is 3 times the previous term plus 1. The conjecture is that no matter what value of n, the sequence will always reach 1.

The Challenge: Pray to your God for a proof/disproof of the conjecture. Post the proof/disproof here. If your god gives you a valid proof/disproof, I will believe in your god and convert to your religion.

There are those of us theists that do not pray or view the divine as you perceive it here, and those of us that have no interest in converting anyone to anything.

That said, my god found this on teh interwebz (which is also my god).


Not exactly proof, but an interesting approach, but then again, my god is not a mathematician (well, at least in this manifestation) even though it is. :)


ETA: Evidence my god can manifest as a mathematician below... :D
There was a short story many years ago about a mathematician that agreed to sell his soul to the devil if he would get a proof of Fermat's Last Theorem within 24 hours in return (this was well before 1994 when it was finally solved after 358 years).

The story mostly deals with the devil learning the different types of math that had been used to attack the problem up to that time. Ultimately, the time ran out and the devil had to admit defeat.

The last line was the devil saying he had an idea to try next.....

The Collatzs conjecture isn't as sexy as FLT was, but you might get a better bargain with someone who makes deals....

/E: Found it: "The Devil and Simon Flagg" by Arthur Porges.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I'd also point out that a generalization of the Collatz conjecture is known to be undecidable. In essence, there is no computer program that will determine from the input (integer n, and iteration function) whether the sequence will reach 1.

Collatz conjecture - Wikipedia

So, it is *possible* that this conjecture is unsolvable: there is simply no way to determine if this process stops for every integer or not.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I'd also point out that a generalization of the Collatz conjecture is known to be undecidable. In essence, there is no computer program that will determine from the input (integer n, and iteration function) whether the sequence will reach 1.

Collatz conjecture - Wikipedia

So, it is *possible* that this conjecture is unsolvable: there is simply no way to determine if this process stops for every integer or not.

My understanding of the conjecture is that it is logically equivalent to (by generating possible previous terms) starting with the number n equals 8 and multiplying by 2, then if the next generated number is congruent /equivalent to 4 mod 6, two new numbers are generated, namely (n-1)/3 and 2n, or if the next generated previous number is not equivalent to 4 mod 6, only one number is generated, namely 2n. The question is whether the set of all positive integers can be generated in this fashion starting with 8. This is a "backwards" way of looking at the conjecture, and I probably didn't do a great job of explaining it, but am I correct in thinking this is an equivalent question?
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
The Collatz conjecture is a conjecture in mathematics that concerns a sequence defined as follows: start with any positive integer n. Then each term is obtained from the previous term as follows: if the previous term is even, the next term is one half the previous term. If the previous term is odd, the next term is 3 times the previous term plus 1. The conjecture is that no matter what value of n, the sequence will always reach 1.

The Challenge: Pray to your God for a proof/disproof of the conjecture. Post the proof/disproof here. If your god gives you a valid proof/disproof, I will believe in your god and convert to your religion.

It seems that this iterative algorithm is one that "finds" a certain series of numbers, which is the series of all numbers that can be expressed as 2 to the power of n. Once it finds a number in that series the algorithm iterates until it reaches 1 by the condition for even numbers. Then it stays in a cycle of 1 4 2 1...

The way it finds that series is to make all odd numbers even and larger is a minimal but non-trivial way. It is, in effect, a random number generator that repeats until it lands on the 2 to the power of n series.

I think that the trick might be to show that for this algorithm that the iterations never fall into a repeating loop other than the one which ends as above.

I will give it some more thought...
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
It seems that this iterative algorithm is one that "finds" a certain series of numbers, which is the series of all numbers that can be expressed as 2 to the power of n. Once it finds a number in that series the algorithm iterates until it reaches 1 by the condition for even numbers. Then it stays in a cycle of 1 4 2 1...

The way it finds that series is to make all odd numbers even and larger is a minimal but non-trivial way. It is, in effect, a random number generator that repeats until it lands on the 2 to the power of n series.

I think that the trick might be to show that for this algorithm that the iterations never fall into a repeating loop other than the one which ends as above.

I will give it some more thought...

I believe that is not enough. You would also need to show it doesn't diverge.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It might be a good idea to look at some variants. For example, if we divide an even number by 2 and multiple an odd by *5* and add *3*, we can ask a similar question. But here, it is easy to see the conjecture fails.

For example, we have the sequence

3, 18, 9, 48, 24, 12, 6, 3

and we have a cycle.

On the other hand, starting at 5, we have

5, 28, 14, 7, 38, 19, 98, 49, 248, 124, 62, 31, 158, ...

and I have run this with a python program and it shows now sign of either cycling or heading to 1.

So the Collatz conjecture is *very* finely tuned to 2 and 3.

This is no way gives a proof or disproof. It is merely a comment.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems that this iterative algorithm is one that "finds" a certain series of numbers, which is the series of all numbers that can be expressed as 2 to the power of n. Once it finds a number in that series the algorithm iterates until it reaches 1 by the condition for even numbers. Then it stays in a cycle of 1 4 2 1...

The way it finds that series is to make all odd numbers even and larger is a minimal but non-trivial way. It is, in effect, a random number generator that repeats until it lands on the 2 to the power of n series.

I think that the trick might be to show that for this algorithm that the iterations never fall into a repeating loop other than the one which ends as above.

I will give it some more thought...

It is *possible* that there is also some number where the resulting sequence is unbounded. So, while it sometimes goes up and sometimes goes down, the overall pattern is to go up infinitely.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I also looked at using 5n+1 instead of 3n+1. There is a nice cycle that starts at 13. On the other hand, starting at 7 seems to go infinite.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
My understanding of the conjecture is that it is logically equivalent to (by generating possible previous terms) starting with the number n equals 8 and multiplying by 2, then if the next generated number is congruent /equivalent to 4 mod 6, two new numbers are generated, namely (n-1)/3 and 2n, or if the next generated previous number is not equivalent to 4 mod 6, only one number is generated, namely 2n. The question is whether the set of all positive integers can be generated in this fashion starting with 8. This is a "backwards" way of looking at the conjecture, and I probably didn't do a great job of explaining it, but am I correct in thinking this is an equivalent question?

That looks basically right, except you won't get 1,2, or 4 by that method.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
God does not work that way. No one else can pray for proof for you or proof that would convince you. If you want proof you must seek God yourself, there is no go between. God desires a relationship with you personally and that you would seek Him directly to know of His existence or presence.

Shifting the Goal Posts:
all knowing knows.jpg
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Right...your whole tone and attitude is one of sarcasm and if I can pick up on that certainly God knows you are not sincere.

See my previous post: If your god truly is real? It would not only want to prove it exists, but it would know exactly what a skeptic needs to be convincing.

The fact that your god 100% refuses to even make the attempt? Proves either your god is maliciously evil, or doesn't care or simply doesn't exist.

Which is it?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The challenge is of the God as a piñata that we can "whack" with prayers and who gives out goodies, in this case proof. The entire frame-of-reference of the question is invalid.

Since god demands worship or he will torture you forever? It's rather "his" responsibility to prove "he" exists.

To do otherwise is either maliciously evil, doesn't care at all, or doesn't exist.

Absolutely not even a little bit loving.
 

SugarOcean

¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS
The Collatz conjecture is a conjecture in mathematics that concerns a sequence defined as follows: start with any positive integer n. Then each term is obtained from the previous term as follows: if the previous term is even, the next term is one half the previous term. If the previous term is odd, the next term is 3 times the previous term plus 1. The conjecture is that no matter what value of n, the sequence will always reach 1.

The Challenge: Pray to your God for a proof/disproof of the conjecture. Post the proof/disproof here. If your god gives you a valid proof/disproof, I will believe in your god and convert to your religion.

I would imagine there are many of different faiths on this site.
An answer from a Christian is this per your OP question. "how can you convert me to your religion" ?
Ours is labeled a religion however it is actually a covenant of relationship with the creator of all that exists.
Therefore, the answer to your question is, we cannot.
The creator in our covenant of relationship knew for whom The Word would resonate as truth before the creation of this world. No one comes into that covenant of relationship without the creator calling them by the name he knows them to answer to.

If that call resonates with your spirit you'll know it. And then you'll decide.
 
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