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Featured Cessationism vs. continuationism

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Crypto2015, Jun 7, 2016.

  1. Crypto2015

    Crypto2015 Active Member

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    Cessationism: The gifts of the Holy Spirit were only for the first and maybe second generation of Christians. After the writing of the Bible was completed, the gifts of the Holy Spirit (at least the supernatural ones) disappeared from the face of the Earth.

    Continuationism: Nothing has changed in the way in which the Holy Spirit deals with the church. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are for all generations, until Judgement day.

    It is evident to me that Cessationism has ZERO scriptural support. Actually, you have to deny God's word in order to aver that the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit (prophecy, tongues, healing, miracles, etc.) have disappeared from the face of the Earth.

    What do you think?
     
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  2. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    A good compromise between the views: God does the gifts, but they more rarely manifest than they did back then. After all, we see massive amounts of miracles around the giving of the Law, the time of the "major" prophets, the times of the gospels--and in future, Armageddon.
     
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  3. Kent856

    Kent856 Member

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    I personally believe that God does not grant people the ability to perform miracles in our day.

    A scripture that comes to mind is 1 Cor 13:8 which writes "Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with". -- NWT

    A notable difference in translation comes with verses 9,10 which write, "For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with".

    Now here perhaps there is a difference in the understanding of "what is complete" and if it has come already or not. I think another translation renders it "what is perfect" which obviously changes the whole meaning.

    My decision rests more however on the logic of why God employed miracles at that time. Namely, to accelerate the growth of Christianity and establish it properly so it would not be entirely eradicated. These days Christianity and Catholicism are so widespread that there is not much fear of that happening and therefore miracles are not needed to fulfill Gods purpose.

    My opinion on it :)
     
  4. Crypto2015

    Crypto2015 Active Member

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    "Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with" (1 Corinthians 13:8)


    Corinthians 13 is the only passage to which people can appeal in order to try to demonstrate that the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer operative. However, notice that even a cursory examination of the text shows that the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit are still with us. For instance, Corinthians 13:8 talks not only about the gift of tongues and the gift of prophecy, but also about the gift of knowledge. Has knowledge of God also disappeared from the face of the Earth? Of course not. No one would spouse such a theory. Thus, Corinthians 13:8 does not lend support to cessationism.

    "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." (Corinthians 13:9-12)

    It is evident that in the passage above Paul is speaking of Jesus' second coming. This is what the "the perfect" means. Some people try to argue that Paul was talking about the biblical canon. However, this line of reasoning is patently wrong. Nowhere in the New Testament the biblical canon is mentioned or discussed. Positing that Paul is speaking about the biblical canon is like positing that Paul is speaking about colour TV or interstellar journeys. All things that never came into the apostle's mind.

    Regarding the fact that today the church is nearly everywhere and that therefore the gifts of the Spirit are no longer needed, this is simply not true. There are lots of places on this Earth in which the gifts of the Spirit are desperately needed. For instance, the Middle East or China. I would also argue that all of the gifts are needed everywhere. This is what the Bible teaches us.
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I think it's fairly obvious that the gifts, as they were evident in the first century, are no longer seen today. Reading about the miracles in the Gospels, it is apparent that people who came for healing were 100% healed with no failures and the dead were raised. Speaking in tongues was actually the ability to speak in foreign languages, not gibberish.
    Large crowds gathered once they heard about the miracle workers and no one went away without a cure. Restoration of sight to the blind...hearing given to the deaf and the restoration of disabled limbs.....none of this is seen in today's world. Jesus fed thousands of people with two loaves of bread and a few fish.
    If it is the same holy spirit in operation, then we would be seeing the same results. (Matthew 15:30)

    Another thing to note is that the gifts were not performed for believers, but only for the benefit of unbelievers, in order for them to come to Christ. The apostles did not heal each other, nor did they perform miracles for their own benefit. Paul recommended a little wine for Timothy's frequent cases of sickness. (1 Timothy 5:23)

    It is interesting to note that Paul's words concerning the cessation of the gifts quoted above, included..."When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things......But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love."

    The gifts were equated with the traits of a child. When Christianity was in its infancy, the gifts were a powerful attraction for those who were spiritual babes, but now that Christians had "grown up", the necessity for the childish things was done away with. What remained was something more important....."faith, hope and love". These were now the identifying traits of a mature Christian. (John 13:34, 35)
    The "tricks" were now part of satan's repertoire. (2 Thessalonians 2:9; 2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

    If miraculous healings and resurrections were being performed today, it would make world headlines! [​IMG]
     
  6. Crypto2015

    Crypto2015 Active Member

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    So, your arguments against the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit can be summarized as follows:

    (1) We don't see great miracles today.

    (2) The gifts were intended for the benefit of unbelievers and not for the benefit of believers. The apostles did not benefit from miraculous healing.

    (3) The miraculous gifts were intended to help the development of the early Christian church, which was childish and undeveloped as compared to our present church.

    Let's examine these points one by one.

    Point (1) is irrelevant because we are not meant to be guided by personal experience, but by the word of God: "and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Timothy 3:15) and "Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path" (Psalm 119:105).

    Point (2) is based on a wrong premise. All of the gifts are intended for the edification of individual Christians and of the Christian church. Unbelievers also benefit from the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but they are certainly not the only beneficiaries. For instance,

    "Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church."(1 Corinthians 14:1-12).

    That the gifts of healing were also for the personal benefit of the apostles is clear from the fact that Paul asked God for personal healing in three different opportunities (2 Corinthians 12:7-8). Did not Paul know that the apostles were not meant to benefit from the gift of healing?

    Point (3) is based on an extreme overrating of the present church and an extreme underrating of the early church. Did we come up with the Christian doctrine ourselves or did we receive it from the early church? We certainly received it from the early church. How can we then say that we are less childish than the very people from whom we received all that we know about God? I wish there were people like Paul, Apollos, Timothy, Peter, or John today. None of our great teachers and theologians can be favourably compared to any of the apostles and ministers of the early church, who were people that personally knew Jesus, heard his sermons and witnessed his miracles. They certainly knew more about Jesus than what we can grasp from reading the Bible, and those to whom they preached the gospel certainly received more knowledge than the one we can receive by reading the Bible. Furthermore, I believe that the present church is evidently full of heresies, as it is evident from the deep and significant theological chasms between Catholics, Protestants, Arminians, Calvinists, Continuationists, Cessationists, etc. Hence, it is ludicrous to assert that the early church was childish and that we are mature and perfect. Take another look at 1 Corinthians chapter 13:

    “Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” (1 Corinthians 13:8-12)

    Do you really believe that “the perfect” has already come? Do you really believe that now we see God “face to face” and “know fully”?

    The truth is that Cessationism is one of the falsest doctrines in the history of the church and nullifies God's direct commandments:

    “Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.” (1 Corinthians 14:1).

    “So, my brothers, be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues.” (1 Corinthians 14:39).
     
    #6 Crypto2015, Jul 29, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I don't see it like that. Those in the first century had visible proof that supernatural events were taking place through one who was identified as their Messiah. Just by word of mouth the news spread and thousands of people were seeking out this miracle worker and listening to his sermons. Those who could heal the sick, raise the dead, and expel demons by the use of his name were also sought out. (Acts 5:12-16) It's called evidence.
    Imagine if there were miracle workers today and social media got hold of it....[​IMG]

    All of the first Christians who gathered in an upper room were recipients of the holy spirit and were granted the gifts because of the situation at the time. The celebration of the festival of Pentecost meant that Jews from widespread areas and different languages, had come to Jerusalem for the festival. These saw with their own eyes the miracles, and heard with their own ears the good news of the kingdom in their own languages. (Acts 2:1-21)

    Paul asked that "the thorn in his flesh" be removed, because it was perceived as 'an angel of satan slapping him'. He does not divulge what this 'thorn' was but God did not remove it. (2 Corinthians 12:7-10) Paul did not cure Timothy of his stomach ailment.

    If you know scripture then you must know that an apostasy was foretold in the early church. (Jesus alluded to it in his parable of the "wheat and the weeds")
    After the death of Jesus, the books of the NT were completed and form part of scripture that we use today, but for first century Jews who listened to Jesus, the OT was all they had. Jesus taught from those writings and proved that he was the Messiah by fulfilling all that was written in advance about him.
    But even in the days of the apostles, the apostates were in evidence, held back by the presence of Christ's chosen ones. But once their influence was gone, the apostasy flourished.
    Weakened Christianity sank lower and lower as men introduced false teachings to lead the flock away from Christ's truth. By the 4th century the situation was ripe for the take over of Roman Catholicism and the rest is 'bloody' history. Nothing written after the closure of the Bible canon can be relied upon to be "inspired of God" (2 Timothy 3:16-17; Acts 20:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 15-22; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; Hebrews 6:4-8) The Bible is the only truth that we can rely on, but men were going to twist its meaning to their own downfall.

    Please read the way this word "perfect" is used throughout the NT. It isn't just pertaining to something "perfect" but to something "complete". It is contrasted to something that is partial or incomplete. I believe that it is the complete word of God, not available to Christ's first century disciples, but freely available to us today in this time of decision.

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5046&t=NASB

    Do you believe that those to whom the Greek scriptures were written "know God face to face"? I believe that the majority who are chosen to reign with Christ are already in their heavenly positions awaiting the removal of satan's entire world system so that Revelation 21:1-5 can be fulfilled.

    You think that the words of the NT are personally directed to ALL Christians? Not all Christians are "chosen" to rule with Jesus. Not all Christians were recipients of the gifts.
    There will be subjects of the kingdom who will become its citizens on earth. Those who go to heaven will be made immortal and incorruptible, so there is no need of priests for them in heaven. But since those who rule with Jesus are to be both rulers and priests, they must have subjects who are sinners. (Revelation 20:6) There are no sinners in heaven.

    There are no further prophesies to be made. No speaking in tongues is required now to impart knowledge of God's word to the world because the Bible is available in all languages and the church no longer has any power over people as far as their Bible knowledge is concerned.....all can read it for themselves.
     
  8. Crypto2015

    Crypto2015 Active Member

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    There are people with supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit in different parts of the world today. There were many people with gifts like these in my hometown in South America and also in my wife's hometown in Russia. Even some of my close family members have gifts like these. However, even if you do not know anyone with gifts like these, you should believe in the possibility of receiving gifts like these solely on the basis of the Scriptures. Regarding the reason why these people are not famous, it seems to me that the number one reason is unbelief. As the Bible says: "He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (Luke 16:31).

    God did not remove Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” not because the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit were disappearing or because apostles were not meant to benefit from miraculous gifts. Paul explained why God did not remove this thorn: “So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.” (2 Corinthians 12:7). Notice that Paul did benefit from miraculous healing in other opportunities:

    “When Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and put them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat and fastened on his hand. When the native people saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer. Though he has escaped from the sea, Justice has not allowed him to live.” He, however, shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. They were waiting for him to swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But when they had waited a long time and saw no misfortune come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god.” (Acts 28:3-6)

    On this same chapter, the last of the book of Acts, Paul uses the gift of healing to cure someone (Acts 28:8). Notice that all of your arguments against the continuation of the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit are based on syllogism and not on the word of God. The word of God actually states the complete opposite: that the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit are for all believers until Jesus’s second coming. Immediately after Pentecost, when Peter was explaining what the outpouring of the Spirit meant, he uttered these words:

    “And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” (Acts 2:38-39).
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The other reason might be that it isn't the power of the holy spirit at all, but the "signs and wonders" that the devil can mimic. You might remember that the magic-practicing priests in Moses day were able to duplicate some of his miracles. (Exodus ch 7) Whose power was used by those worshippers of foreign gods?
    "Magic" is the devil's tool. God's people were forbidden to practice it. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

    I never said that. The gifts were in clearly in evidence whilst the apostles were still alive, but because the gifts were only passed by or in the presence of the apostles, once they died, there was no one to pass them on. The gifts died with them, having accomplished what they had been sent to do.

    This incident is not Paul using the holy spirit to heal himself, but God using his holy spirit to prevent the viper's venom from harming Paul, according to a promise.
    Taken in context it was all part of God making sure that Paul took his stand before Caesar.

    Acts 27:20-26:
    "When neither sun nor stars appeared for many days and a violent storm was battering us, all hope of our being saved finally began to fade. 21 After they had gone a long time without food, Paul stood up in their midst and said: “Men, you certainly should have taken my advice and not have put out to sea from Crete and as a result suffered this damage and loss. 22 Still, I now urge you to take courage, for not one of you will be lost, only the ship will. 23 This night an angel of the God to whom I belong and to whom I render sacred service stood by me 24 and said: ‘Have no fear, Paul. You must stand before Caesar, and look! God has granted to you all those sailing with you.’ 25 So take courage, men, for I believe God that it will be exactly as I was told. 26 However, we must be cast ashore on some island.”

    Again, the man healed was the father of Publius who was some sort of ruler of the Island...he was not a believer.

    Do you just take what others tell you or do you actually do your own research? The lack of understanding of the details in your comments makes me wonder how well you actually know your Bible. The truth is in the detail. You seem to allow your beliefs to alter what scripture actually says. You are feeding your pre-conceived beliefs rather than allowing scripture to paint the complete picture.

    All of the first Christians had the "heavenly calling" and until the ranks of the heavenly rulers was filled, everything written was to them.

    The performance of the spiritual gifts is not proof of the holy spirit in this time of the end.
    These words of Jesus prove it.....
    Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)

    The fact that these "Christians" tell their "Lord" Jesus that they 'prophesied in his name, expelled demons in his name and performed many powerful works in his name' is no proof that Jesus accepts them as his disciples. Jesus says to them that he 'NEVER knew them'...which means that the power to perform these powerful works did not come by holy spirit. These "powerful works" obviously came from another source of power, as it was demonstrated in the case of Pharaoh's magic practicing priests.
     
  10. Crypto2015

    Crypto2015 Active Member

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    People were filled with the Holy Spirit not only by the laying on of the hands of the apostles, but also from the laying on of the hands of other disciples. For instance, in this passage:

    “So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; and taking food, he was strengthened.” (Acts 9:17-19)

    Regarding from whom I have learnt the few things that I know about the Bible, I must say that by the grace of God I learned them from God himself:

    “And don't let anyone call you 'Teacher,' for you have only one teacher, the Messiah.” (Matthew 32:10)

    “It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.” (John 6:45)

    “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” (James 1:5)

    I started to understand the Bible when I received Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. We need to say out loud: “I believe that Jesus is the Son of God who was raised from the dead, and I accept him as my Lord and Saviour”. Because as it is written

    “But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” (Romans 10:8-10)

    We need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. As our Lord because we will follow him wherever he leads and as our Saviour because all of us are sinners that will never be worthy of heaven. Hence, we depend only on the merits of Christ for our salvation. Our own merits are nothing but filthy rags before God:

    “We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” (Isaiah 64:6)

    Don’t let anyone tell you that what is written in the Bible is not for you, but only for a few chosen ones.

    “You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men.” (1 Corinthians 7:23)

    And

    “Thus says the LORD: “Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the LORD.” (Jeremiah 17:5)
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is interesting that you carry on to an example that seems to prop up your beliefs without any comment on the scriptures already presented to you.
    Powerful works are no proof of holy spirit....they can be the works of the "angel of light"...out to deceive. (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

    Acts 9:17-19 is again a snatch out of context and with little meditation on the detail.

    Ananias was specially sent by God to Paul. One who is "sent" is literally an "apostle". Jesus is called an "apostle" in Hebrews 3:1. God can empower anyone he chooses for a specific purpose.

    I have never quite heard that spin placed on those words before......are you saying that just mouthing the words is all that is necessary for salvation?
    Do you believe that the ones mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23 failed to acknowledge Jesus as their "Lord"? They said that everything they did, including "powerful works" was done in Jesus' name.....yet Jesus refused to recognize them as his own, saying that he had never known them, despite the fact that they thought they knew him and were claiming to be Christians. What did they do wrong? What "lawlessness" were they guilty of?

    That doesn't mean that belief alone is all that is necessary. "Faith without works is dead"....so faith must produce the works that lead to salvation. (James 2:18-20: 26)

    I have never been told that what is written in the Bible is for only a chosen few. It applies in principle to all, but unless you can see that the Greek scriptures apply principally to the heavenly chosen ones who will be resurrected "first" and who will "be priests of God" and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him "for the 1,000 years", (Revelation 20:6) you have a false view of what the kingdom is for. This kingdom is made up of a finite number of former humans who will rule over earthly subjects for a set period of years, till every last trace of sin has gone from the human race. All will then be in the same sinless state that Adam was in the beginning. After one final test, (Revelation 7:7-9) mankind will then be true sinless sons of their heavenly Father, and speak to him without the need of a mediator. Reconciliation is what the kingdom is designed for so that God's first purpose in connection with this earth can be completed. All of the gifts were a foregleam or demonstration of the way things will be in "the new earth" ruled over by a new heavenly government. (2 Peter 3:13)

    Revelation 21:3-4:
    "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
     
    #11 Deeje, Aug 1, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2016
  12. Crypto2015

    Crypto2015 Active Member

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    There are ways to distinguish between Satan’s deceptions and the genuine work of the Holy Spirit. For instance, the Holy Spirit does not produce fear, nor does it take away your self-control.

    “For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.” (2 Timothy 1:7)

    “For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" (Romans 8:15)

    “For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.” (1 Corinthians 14:31-33)

    You seem to believe that all of the miracles or supernatural gifts that we see today are being carried out by the devil. This is not what the Bible teaches us.

    Confessing our belief in Christ is what saves us.

    “So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,” (Matthew 10:32)

    “And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God,” (Luke 12:8)

    “But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:8-13)

    Good works are the visible manifestation of a genuine faith. However, we are saved by our faith, not by our good works. Our good works just that saving faith exists within our hearts. In other words, our good works simply prove that we have already been saved by faith.

    “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:8-10)

    The people that said “Lord, Lord...” (Matthew 7:21-23) but never had a genuine personal encounter with Jesus Christ are people who never had faith in Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Notice that all of the words mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23 could be said by Judas Iscariot, yet Judas never really believed that Jesus was his Lord and Saviour:

    “Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.” (John 6:64)

    I am not going to discuss the false teachings of the Watchtower organization in this thread because it would derail the thread.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    But you know how deception works...right? [​IMG]

    If the devil can masquerade as an "angel of light", what do you think that means? If you saw an angel, would you think it was the devil?
    If he makes the truth look like a lie and vice versa...how would you know? If you have been raised to believe a certain way all your life and then someone presented you with something completely different, would you automatically reject it? That is what the majority of Jews did in the first century.

    A similar apostasy was foretold for Christianity, but most are like those first century Jews and don't believe it happened.

    Put yourself back in the first century when Paul wrote that to Timothy.....did Christ's disciples need boldness, power, love and self discipline? What was the environment in which they preached?

    This verse applies to those with the "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) Their adoption as "sons" of God makes them "brothers" to Christ. (Matthew 25:40) We are to do good to even the least of Christ's brothers.

    In the first century, the gifts were still in evidence, but after the apostles died, the ability to pass on the gifts died with them. In later times, "powerful works" and "signs and wonders" are associated with the power of the devil. (1 Corinthians 1-11) The gifts were to cease. (1 Corinthians 13:8-13) The traits of a spiritual babe were done away with when the baby grew up, not needing milk anymore, but solid food, so that growth is maintained. (Hebrews 5:11-14) The miracles were the milk.

    It is not the mere acknowledgement of that fact but living your life in accordance with Jesus' teachings that determines who the true Christians are.
    The churches of Christendom fail on every level. They talk the talk but do not back it up with the works that Jesus told them to do. (James 2:17-26)

    The words of Paul and the writings of James are both in scripture, so it isn't either/or...it must be both. So how do we marry the two statements?

    Is the confession enough? What "works" are required keep our faith alive...not just to ourselves, but to God?
    Can we transgress the teachings of the Christ and still call our "works" acceptable? Does running a charity trump loving our enemies or preaching the good news the way Jesus did? (Matthew 10:11-15; Acts 20:20)

    Judas was chosen as an apostle along with the other 11 by Jesus, after a whole night in prayer to his Father.
    Judas had been with Jesus and the apostles for about two years and had received the instruction and correction of Jesus and had seen his marvelous works, but evidently his heart was not moved....not touched by all the healings that Jesus had performed, and the kindness of Jesus’ training and discipline. To the contrary, he was progressively hardening himself because he was feeding his greedy desire by stealing from the funds that Jesus and the apostles had set aside for their expenses and for aid to the poor. (John 12:6; 13:29)

    On that last night before his death, Jesus said to him: “What you are doing get done more quickly,” it was then that "satan entered into him" (John 13:27) He went on, determined to carry out his wicked scheme. Even when his sin rebounded upon him, he did not go to God in prayer, nor to the apostles, but back to the criminals to whom he had betrayed Jesus. He cringingly tried to give back the 30 pieces of silver, as if that could somehow lessen the heavy guilt that lay upon him. Being rebuffed and rejected by his partners in crime, he went out and hanged himself.

    The ones that Jesus refers to in Matthew 7:21-23 are Christians in good standing...but only in their own eyes. Jesus has never recognized them as his own because they have never been his disciples....never really obeying his teachings.

    Yet you will promote the false teachings of an apostate church? That is your choice to make. But we are talking about scriptural truth here. There are not many versions of the truth.
    Either the gifts that are in evidence today mirror that which took place in the first century, and are from the same source, or they aren't. If they are not, then the power is not from God.

    Raise any point and I will discuss it scripturally, encompassing all of scripture, not just the narrow NT version in cherry picked verses that support Christendom's doctrines.
    No one has anything to fear from the truth. [​IMG]
     
    #13 Deeje, Aug 2, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
  14. Crypto2015

    Crypto2015 Active Member

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    I think that first and foremost we should discuss what does it mean to be a son of God.

    "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

    So, if you believe in Jesus you have been born of God and are Jesus' brother. If you have not been born of God and are not Jesus brother, you will burn in hell for all eternity. There are no second-class Christians. We are all the same: all born of the Spirit and brothers of Jesus Christ. All that is written in the Bible is for you, if you are truly a Christian.
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes that is a very good point. What is the "son" of a Father? When did Jesus become the "son of God"? Are there others who are called "sons" of God? How is Jesus unique as an "only begotten son" of God among other sons? Why do I never see "God the Son" written anywhere in the Bible? [​IMG]

    The Christian scriptures were written by and for those with the "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) Therefore all the first Christians were anointed for heavenly life by holy spirit.
    But in the Revelation, the apostle John revealed that they were a finite group made up of 'spiritual Israel', not fleshly Israel. How do we know that? The apostle Paul explained....

    Romans 2:28-29
    "For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

    Romans 9:6-8; 24-26
    However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed."
    "...namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, what of it? 25 It is as he says also in Ho·seʹa: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not loved, ‘beloved’; 26 and in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”


    This is the "royal priesthood and a holy nation" that God promised to produce. (1 Peter 2:7-10)

    The "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) is not fleshly Israel...it is 'spiritual Israel' made up of both Jews and Gentiles.

    But they are not the only Christians to be saved. None of the pre-Christian servants of God had any ideas about going to heaven. This is why the apostles and disciples had trouble grasping what Jesus was trying to tell them about the kingdom and their role in it. Even as he was ascending to heaven, they asked him if he was going to set up his kingdom in Israel back then. (Acts 1:6) They saw Messiah's kingdom as being earthly......and that is true, but it rules the earth from heaven. (Revelation 21:1-5)

    Whoa!!! [​IMG]
    "Burn in hell for all eternity"? You honestly believe that a loving God would do that? There is no burning hell in the Bible. That would violate God's justice and make him a cruel fiend. He has no desire to burn anyone. When his own people began to sacrifice their children in a fire, God was appalled. If he would not allow his own people to burn their children, then why would he do that himself? (Jeremiah 7:31) "Hellfire" sounds like something satan would dream up. [​IMG]

    There are two groups who attribute salvation to God and the Lamb. One numbered group, seen in heaven with Jesus (144,000. Revelation 14: 1-3) and another group who survive the "great tribulation" on earth. (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14) Neither group is "second class". All have been bought with the blood of Christ, which makes every life precious to God.

    Those who are to rule with Jesus are raised "first" (Revelation 20:6) Those who are to be ruled by these ones have no envy, because they are chosen by God himself to be our priests, guiding and directing our education and worship throughout the millennium of the kingdom's rulership.

    The general resurrection of the dead takes place later. (John 5:28-29) These ones are called from their graves because they are still in them.

    Yep, we are all the same....but some will have the privilege of ruling with Christ in heaven and some will enjoy their rulership on earth. I am not one of the anointed and have no desire to go to heaven....my desire is the same as most humans....I want to live in paradise on earth; the place God intended for us at the beginning.

    Do you understand that if Adam had not disobeyed his God, then there would have been no reason for Christ to come to the earth in human form and give his life....no need for a kingdom....no need for salvation...no sin and no death?

    The purpose of God's kingdom is reconciliation, and forgiveness for those who are repentant....not torture for all eternity for those who fail to measure up.

    Deut 30:19-20:
    " I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land that Jehovah swore to give to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

    There were only two choices placed before God's ancient people....'obey and live or disobey and die'. That has never changed. We either live forever or we die forever....never to be remembered....as if we never existed. If we are alienated from God, we are "dead" to him already.
     
  16. Crypto2015

    Crypto2015 Active Member

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    God the Son:

    “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19)

    “And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (Galatians 4:6)

    Jesus is God:

    “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)

    “Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:” (2 Peter 1:1)

    “waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,” (Titus 2:13)

    “Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)

    Jesus never changes:

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8)

    “And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (Hebrews 1:10-12)

    Hell:

    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41)

    “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

    "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

    “And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)



    It pains me to say that unless you start believing in God rather than on the Watchtower organization, you will end up in the lake of fire.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    There is no "God the Son".....not one single mention of him in all of scripture. There is only "the son of God". This is what Jesus called himself. It is what the apostles called him. (John 10:36; Matthew 16:16)

    This means fully recognizing the roles of the Father, (whom Jesus called the "only true God. John 17:3) the son he sent into the world, and the holy spirit or the administration of God's power, used to accomplish his will. It doesn't mean a trinity and never did. At the time Jesus said those words, there was no trinity. Jesus was Jewish and the Jews had no teaching of a triune god. Their God was YHWH and he was a single entity. (Deuteronomy 4:6)

    Sorry, but none of that is proof that Jesus is God. The spirit of God came upon Jesus at his baptism and the same spirit was promised by Jesus to his disciples, which they received at Pentecost.

    Jesus is rightly called a divine "mighty one" (god) but as you can see from this verse in Isaiah, he is "mighty", not ALMIGHTY.
    Since a "father" is a 'lifegiver" this refers to Jesus being responsible for everlasting life to those he has ransomed from the human race.
    You will also notice that he is a "Prince", which is the son of a King.

    Not once in all of scripture is Jesus called Almighty God.

    The Word was "with God" but he was not the Almighty. He was "a god" (theos) not "THE God" (ho theos). Reading this verse in Greek, you will see the definite article (the) is used for Jehovah, but not for his Logos. John goes on to say in verse 18 of the same chapter that "no man has ever seen God"...but we know that thousands of people saw Jesus.

    Again, reading this verse from the Greek you will see that the phrasing in most Bibles is not translated correctly.

    "Σίμων Simon Πέτρος Peter δοῦλος slave καὶ and ἀπόστολος apostle Ἰησοῦ of Jesus Χριστοῦ Christ τοῖς to the (ones) ἰσότιμον equally precious ἡμῖν to us λαχοῦσιν having obtained (by lot) πίστιν faith ἐν in δικαιοσύνῃ righteousness τοῦ of the θεοῦ God ἡμῶν of us καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior Ἰησοῦ Jesus Χριστοῦ· Christ;"

    Same Greek phrasing. Did the apostles really think that Jesus was God?
    1 Corinthians 8:5-6:
    "For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

    Were they in any doubt? How plain and direct a statement do you need?

    Jesus was a "divine mighty one" (god) to Thomas....his Lord, Teacher and close companion for two years. None of the apostles thought Jesus was Almighty God...that would have been blasphemy to a Jew, breaking the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

    But he still isn't God. His personality is just like his Father's. (Colossians 1:15)

    A quick glance at the verse in context will reveal that the "Lord" being addressed here is God Jehovah, not Jesus.

    Fire in the Bible is a symbol of destruction. The "lake of fire" is the place prepared for the devil and his angels. It is not a literal place but a destination denoting total annihilation. "Death and hades" are also pitched into this "lake", so it isn't a literal place...whatever goes in there is never seen again...it is utterly destroyed.

    The "lake of fire" and "gehenna" mean exactly the same thing.
    If you were a first century Jew, "gehenna" would have been understood as the Valley of Hinnom, outside the walls of Jerusalem, where the bodies of executed criminals were cast to dispose of them. Considered unworthy of a decent burial meant no memorial tomb and hence no resurrection to a Jew. Jesus was going to call the dead from their graves, (John 5:28-29) ending the first death, but anyone in gehenna or the lake of fire will never come out.
    "Gehenna" and "hades" are both translated "hell" in most Bibles. That is misleading. They are two very different places with two different outcomes.

    Revelation 20 and 21 have a few mentions the "second death".
    "14 And death and the Grave [hades] were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14-15)

    So, what is the second death? Does it really mean life? You honestly believe that a loving God would torture people for all eternity? What possible purpose could that serve?
    That does not fulfill God's justice nor does it accomplish repentance, which is why God administered discipline to his people. If there is no way to repent, then why would God do such a thing?

    And it pains me to see that you have taken no notice of the scriptures beyond what Christendom has taught you. I came out of that place and it was the most liberating thing I have ever done. I now know the true God and his son and will never accept Christendom's version of anything ever again.

    We will have to wait and see who ends up where I guess.
     
  18. Crypto2015

    Crypto2015 Active Member

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    God the Son is mentioned all over the Scriptures, although perhaps not in the deceitful translations of the Watchtower, the only organization in human history that have dared to tamper with the word of God. I see that you said nothing about the fact that the following verse calls Jesus “Everlasting Father”:

    ““For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)

    How do you explain that? You also did not mention the fact that the following verse proves without any doubt that hell is not simply annihilation, but that it is actually eternal torment.

    “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

    Tormented day and night forever and ever. Pretty simple, isn’t it? You said that you don’t understand how a loving God can torment someone for all eternity. Well, there is no greater torment than the absence of God. Hence, God will devote the people who hate him to an eternity without God. That is the greatest torment ever, yet it is what these people chose.

    Regarding the following passage:

    “And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (Hebrews 1:10-12)

    You said that this passage talks about the Lord and not about Jesus. That is simply not true. Here is the whole passage

    But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

    And,

    “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (Hebrews 1:8-12)

    Yet the original passage in Psalm 102 is addressed to Yahweh (Jehovah does not exist):

    “Let this be recorded for a generation to come, so that a people yet to be created may praise the Lord: that he looked down from his holy height; from heaven the Lord (Yahweh) looked at the earth, to hear the groans of the prisoners, to set free those who were doomed to die, that they may declare in Zion the name of the Lord (Yahweh), and in Jerusalem his praise, when peoples gather together, and kingdoms, to worship the Lord (Yahweh). He has broken my strength in midcourse; he has shortened my days. “O my God,” I say, “take me not away in the midst of my days—you whose years endure throughout all generations!” Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end.” (Psalm 102:25-27)

    Here you see how the author of Hebrews applied this passage, which was originally talking about Yahweh to Jesus. Was it a mistake? Absolutely not. John also tells us that Yahweh and Jesus are one and the same. Notice that John tells us that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory:


    “When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.” (John 12:36-41)

    Whose glory did Isaiah see? The answer is in Isaiah 6:

    “In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the traina of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord (Yahweh) of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!” And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord (Yahweh) of hosts!” (Isaiah 6:1-5)


    So, Isaiah saw Jesus, who is Yahweh. This is not the only passage that I can use to prove to you that Jesus is Yahweh.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No, sorry, "God the Son" is not mentioned even once. The church invented that title along with "God the Holy Spirit". No such titles existed until centuries after Jesus' death.

    Jesus is the subservient son of his superior Father. (1 Corinthians 11:3) He is a "holy servant" of his God. (Acts of Apostles 4:30)

    But of course the translations used in Christendom's churches have never been tampered with...have they? Would you like to start a thread about this tampering? I would love to show you just how unreliable Christendom's translations are.

    I did actually. Please reread my reply.

    In order to suffer any kind of torment, one must be conscious. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6; 10 says....

    "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.... Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going." (ESV)

    "Sheol" is the Hebrew equivalent of "hades". Notice that even "love" has perished...the very epitome of all that God represents.

    Since the dead are not conscious, there is nothing to torment. The word "torment" is "basanizō" . Please see how this word is used in other parts of the NT.

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G928&t=NASB

    It isn't only used with respect to physical torture. It can also mean mental anguish.
    Jailers often inflicted cruel tortures on prisoners, hence were called ba·sa·ni·stesʹ. For example, debtors were sometimes thrown into prison for failing to pay what they owed. There the jailer might scourge and torture them, and they would not be released until, as Jesus said, they “paid over the last coin of very little value.” (Matthew 5:25-26) This also was the point of Jesus’ illustration about the unmerciful slave. When the master learned what his ungrateful slave had done, he “delivered him to the jailers [ba·sa·ni·staisʹ], until he should pay back all that was owing.” (Matthew 18:34, 35) If you compare Revelation 14:11, “torment” is translated from ba·sa·ni·smouʹ.

    This assumes that the dead are conscious in another place. The Bible has no such teaching. The dead are actually dead....they cannot think, plan, feel or do anything.
    Everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life. All torment is therefore experienced in this life and the "everlasting punishment" comes from being eternally removed from life altogether. Does God have a reason to keep anyone alive who does not want to obey him?

    Remember Jesus said..."And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[a]

    Footnotes:
    1. Matthew 10:28 Greek Gehenna" (ESV)
    So in Gehenna, there is destruction of the whole person....body and soul. No eternal torture...just eternal death.
     
    #19 Deeje, Aug 5, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2016
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Funny, I see the one addressed as the one who has a God. See the part you didn't highlight..."therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

    Can God have a God? Does God in fact anoint himself?

    Hebrews 1:1-2:
    "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

    Proverbs 8:30-31 tells us that God was not alone in creation, but that his son was at his side as a "master workman".

    John 1:2, 3 say the same thing...
    "He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."

    Colossians 1:15-16:
    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."

    God created all things "through" the agency of his son. Jesus is not the Creator, but the one "through whom" God created all that exists.

    Hebrews 1:8:
    See how this is phrased in the Greek....
    πρὸς toward δὲ but τὸν the υἱόν SonThe θρόνος throne σου of youthe θεὸς God εἰς into τὸν the αἰῶνα age τοῦ of the αἰῶνος, age, καὶ andthe ῥάβδος staff τῆς of the εὐθύτητος straightness ῥάβδος staff τῆς of the βασιλείας kingdom αὐτοῦ. of him

    Trinitarians play with the phrasing to make it sound as if Jesus is God, when in reality the Bible teaches no such thing.
    It is actually saying that the kingship of the Christ is founded on Jehovah's throne. YHWH is the "King of eternity" and Jesus occupies his throne as the one who will "bring the many to righteousness". The role of the Messiah is to reconcile fallen humanity back with their God and Father....who is also HIS God and Father. (John 20:17)

    God cannot be the one who reconciles sinful humanity back into a relationship with himself because sinful humans cannot approach God other than through the mediator that God has chosen. (1 Timothy 2:5) If Jesus was God, we would also need a mediator between us and him.

    Hebrews 1:8 should rightly be translated...
    "But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness"
     
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