Celibacy in marriage

[Twilight]

In the institution of marriage, regulated sex is allowed, for the propagation of God Conscious children. This is what is conducive to spiritual advancement. Lord Krishna says:

I am the strength of the strong, devoid of passion and desire. I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles, O lord of the Bhāratas [Arjuna].B.G. 7.11

In that case people will only be having sex a few times in their life time. Not enough to gain their own realisation that sex isn't conducive to spiritual advancement and then to take it for what it is - a condition of being in a human body. Just as we know, for instance, that eating for pleasure is not conducive to spiritual advancement but most people (including those who are celibate) enjoy eating flavoursome food with friends or family as it is a way of sharing on a much deeper and spiritual level than just having our senses pleasured.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Sex desire is like fire. Sense pleasure is like fuel. If you add fuel to fire, can we expect to put out the fire? Similar is the case with 'eating for pleasure' as you have pointed out.

Another thing, even great Rishis - like Vishvamitra, who meditated for thousands of years, fell down (spiritually) just by hearing the ankle bell sound of Menaka. So, what is our ability to restrain senses from sense pleasure?!!

The point I am trying to make here is that we must get a higher pleasure, to be able to give up a lower taste. Unless I get a pizza, I cannot give up a dry loaf of bread, if you understand what I mean.

That is why I quoted, in my earlier post, the following:

The sex impulse remains in an old man's heart also, even up to the point of death. To be rid of such agitation, one must be very much advanced in spiritual consciousness, like Yāmunācārya, who said:

yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde
nava-nava-rasa-dhāmany udyataḿ rantum āsīt
tad-avadhi bata nārī-sańgame smaryamāṇe
bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaḿ ca

"Since I have been engaged in the transcendental loving service of Kṛṣṇa, realizing ever-new pleasure in Him, whenever I think of sex pleasure, I spit at the thought, and my lips curl with distaste."

So, we should control our senses and try to endeavor for this higher taste, which is available in devotion to Supreme Lord. That is why celibacy is recommended (for brahamacharis) and regulated sex, in marriage.

 

[Twilight]

Sex desire is like fire. Sense pleasure is like fuel. If you add fuel to fire, can we expect to put out the fire? Similar is the case with 'eating for pleasure' as you have pointed out.

Another thing, even great Rishis - like Vishvamitra, who meditated for thousands of years, fell down (spiritually) just by hearing the ankle bell sound of Menaka. So, what is our ability to restrain senses from sense pleasure?!!

The point I am trying to make here is that we must get a higher pleasure, to be able to give up a lower taste. Unless I get a pizza, I cannot give up a dry loaf of bread, if you understand what I mean.

That is why I quoted, in my earlier post, the following:



So, we should control our senses and try to endeavor for this higher taste, which is available in devotion to Supreme Lord. That is why celibacy is recommended (for brahamacharis) and regulated sex, in marriage.

That seems to make sense... but then I wonder, would you say it is more preferable to restrain yourself from satisfying your senses or to transcend the desire to satisfy them? The former seems to imply devotion where as the second doesn't so much.

 

[Breathe]

Chastity/celibacy in marriage?
**** no. No pun intended.

I can understand the idea behind it in the days long gone: regulating sex would mean reducing the possibility of unexpected children that could not be taken care of, since contraception in days long gone was... less than reliable.

Nowadays, though, I don't think there is a need for this kind of abstinence within marriage, personally.

Of course, it's just this unenlightened fool's $0.02.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

Sex desire is like fire. Sense pleasure is like fuel. If you add fuel to fire, can we expect to put out the fire? Similar is the case with 'eating for pleasure' as you have pointed out.

Another thing, even great Rishis - like Vishvamitra, who meditated for thousands of years, fell down (spiritually) just by hearing the ankle bell sound of Menaka. So, what is our ability to restrain senses from sense pleasure?!!

An alternate point presents itself clearly in the above. The fuel is all around, it is ambient in our lives, and it is impossible to avoid. Even great Rishis, secluded in meditation, could not avoid it, and even after such total, sustained denial of fuel to the fire, the fire still smoldered bright.

Denial is not the way. I'm a brahmachari of 11 years now, denial brought me nothing but confusion and pain.

Total acceptance brings everything.

This doesn't mean giving way to animalistic impulses, it means recognizing and willfully rechanneling them to the divine, but not with negative, self-limiting and self-wounding feelings attached.

The point I am trying to make here is that we must get a higher pleasure, to be able to give up a lower taste.

Very true, but when does one-taste arise, the taste of madhura rasa and nought else? Where curling the lip and feeling disgust are impossible, symptoms of an impossible rasa churned into sara?


What does this picture mean to you?

Who is Krishna? What is "Klim"?


The quote from the Bhagavad Gita is fine as it is, it does not need commentarial additions to establish its meaning.

Namaste

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Namaste

An alternate point presents itself clearly in the above. The fuel is all around, it is ambient in our lives, and it is impossible to avoid. Even great Rishis, secluded in meditation, could not avoid it, and even after such total, sustained denial of fuel to the fire, the fire still smoldered bright.

Denial is not the way. I'm a brahmachari of 11 years now, denial brought me nothing but confusion and pain.

Total acceptance brings everything.

This doesn't mean giving way to animalistic impulses, it means recognizing and willfully rechanneling them to the divine, but not with negative, self-limiting and self-wounding feelings attached.

Forceful abstinence from lower pleasures like sex, without tasting the higher pleasure of devotional service, will not work.

It did not work in the case of great Rishi like Vishvamitra, who performed service austerities for thousands of years. Because he was not surrendered to Kṛṣṇā in devotion, he did not get the higher taste. So, he fell down on meeting Meneka - the celestial nymph.

On the other hand, Haridāsa Thākura, who was a soul surrendered to Kṛṣṇa in devotion, and who was tasting the nectar of Lord's Holy Names, was able to resist and even deliver the prostitute who was sent to him for his downfall, by an envious person.

That is why the paths of jnana and yoga etc. are not recommended. Only the path of bhakti or devotion is recommended.

Due to our association with matter from time immemorial, through countless lives, we are forced to think that we can only enjoy through our gross physical senses. If we are not getting the higher taste, we should introspect to see where we are going wrong. We should be more sincere in our try and pray to Lord to help us make our life a success. Our progress on the spiritual path depends on the intensity of our 'bhajan' or 'sādhnā'.

If we fall down due to our past conditioning, nothing to worry about, as long as we are not trying to cheat the Lord or ourselves.

Lord Kṛṣṇa in Bhagavad Gitā says:

api cet su-durācāro
bhajate mām ananya-bhāk
sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ
samyag vyavasito hi saḥ​

Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.[B.G. 9.30]

Very true, but when does one-taste arise, the taste of madhura rasa and nought else? Where curling the lip and feeling disgust are impossible, symptoms of an impossible rasa churned into sara?

Sorry, but I have not understood what you are saying.

What does this picture mean to you?

This looks like one of the 9 incarnations of Durga. I am not much informed about the details of the picture.

Who is Krishna? What is "Klim"?

This, again, I have not understood.

The quote from the Bhagavad Gita is fine as it is, it does not need commentarial additions to establish its meaning.

Namaste

If I want to become a doctor, can I become one, just by reading medicine books on my own? Or do I need to study under an expert, who knows the subject, and can explain the finer points of the subject, to dispel our doubts as and when they arise.

If it is true for a mundane material subject like medicine, is the spiritual science of God any cheaper? Thus, we need additional commentaries of an expert to understand Bhagavad Gitā, who is in line with the authorized spiritual disciplines of devotion, as stated in our scriptures.

 

[Maya3]

Glad I posted this article, it sure has given us something to discuss :yes:

Not having sex does save energy that can be channeled when you meditate. It can make the flow of kundalini come faster and more forcefully.

But unless you are a monk, someone who has decided that they are going to devote their life to reaching moksha, I think that this is way too much to expect of people.

There is no need to put such pressure on married couples, or anyone else for that matter. We are in this body now, this body can do a lot, it can have sex, it can meditate, it can eat, it can see, it can run...
it is an amazing machine why shouldn't I use it to it's fullest?

In that case people will only be having sex a few times in their life time. Not enough to gain their own realisation that sex isn't conducive to spiritual advancement and then to take it for what it is - a condition of being in a human body. Just as we know, for instance, that eating for pleasure is not conducive to spiritual advancement but most people (including those who are celibate) enjoy eating flavoursome food with friends or family as it is a way of sharing on a much deeper and spiritual level than just having our senses pleasured.

Very true, it leads to sharing and joy, that in itself leads to spiritual advancement.

When it comes to reaching Moskha, I truly believe that you can both have the cake and eat it too. It will take a lot longer, but if you are married or in a relationship that is fine. You can do both, if you cant then next time choose to be a monk.

Maya

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Namaste

Sexual sadhanas for householders can be extremely efficacious, on par with that of the celibate's path.

I say this as a celibate.


Namaste

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Namaste

An alternate point presents itself clearly in the above. The fuel is all around, it is ambient in our lives, and it is impossible to avoid. Even great Rishis, secluded in meditation, could not avoid it, and even after such total, sustained denial of fuel to the fire, the fire still smoldered bright.

Good point. In modern culture we are sounded by it. A few months ago my 13 year old son told me he watch porn for the first time. I asked him how and why. He told me a girl at school showed him it on her I phone. If you watch TV, drive down the street (Billboards), play Video games, you are bombarded with it. There is no escape. If sex could pull the great Rishi's out of there medatation alone in a cave. It is even harder for us to cope.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Forceful abstinence from lower pleasures like sex, without tasting the higher pleasure of devotional service, will not work.

The problem is today most of us exaggerate our spiritual experiences in our own minds.

It did not work in the case of great Rishi like Vishvamitra, who performed service austerities for thousands of years. Because he was not surrendered to Kṛṣṇā in devotion, he did not get the higher taste. So, he fell down on meeting Meneka - the celestial nymph.

This also applies to the Vaishnava community. How many Swami's have fallen, how many scandals around sex, stories are un-ending.

 

[ratikala]

dear prabhu ,

"Married celibate" is an oxymoron.
Celibacy is the state of being unmarried. Abstinence from sex is chastity.

in correct !

chastity is purity , sita mata who was devoted to lord rama was concidered chased whilst maried and still young It was her devotion to her husband that won her the title chased , pure !in this context chastity has nothing to do with celibacy .

celibacy is not only a state of the bramachari who has not yet taken up family life , or the position of the sanyasi in the fully renounced order of life , but may also be a stage that one has reached in ones life when one begins to renounce simply by reaching a point in ones life where one has no taste for such things .

therefore one may easily be both married and celibate , after all there is more to marage than sex , ......for example a realisation of ones dharma .

 

[Maya3]

Ratikala,

but may also be a stage that one has reached in ones life when one begins to renounce simply by reaching a point in ones life where one has no taste for such things .

I see no problem with this, the keyword is may, and reaching a point where you can focus more on your spiritual life.

But the article was talking about requirements for married couples if you join this order. I think this is too much and completely unnecessary.



Maya

 

[Vinayaka]

This idea, as others have mentioned, would be a NATURAL outcome, not a forced one. The subconscious mind, in and of itself has a rebellious nature, so trying to force it into something it isn't ready for is like trying on clothing that is 3 sizes too small .. you may want it to fit, but it doesn't.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

but may also be a stage that one has reached in ones life when one begins to renounce simply by reaching a point in ones life where one has no taste for such things .

This is the key. As Ramakrishna says, the flower falls off when the fruit is ripe.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

This also applies to the Vaishnava community. How many Swami's have fallen, how many scandals around sex, stories are un-ending.

True. Not everyone is endeavoring with sincerity and resolute purpose to achieve the bliss of association with Supreme Lord. Soul is blissful by nature and is seeking bliss. So, falldowns can and do happen. Which community do they not happen in...they are in the Ramakrishnas, Shaktas, Shaivas...everywhere.

Still, for such occasional fall downs of devotees, Lord Kṛṣṇa says:

api cet su-durācāro
bhajate mām ananya-bhāk
sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ
samyag vyavasito hi saḥ​

Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.[B.G. 9.30]

 

[ratikala]

dear maya ,

What do you think about this? I know it's an ISKCON view and not a mainstream Hindu view. But how many people actually do this, both within ISKCON and in other traditions?

many serious spiritual aspirants aspire to this practice it is not just ISCON, it is a comon practice amongst serious buddhists also.

returning to the article you originaly sited , .....

Discipline has fallen out of fashion in our post-post-modern world. In previous generations, it was seen as a rite of passage, or even a calling (look at the strictness and sacrifice of the American and British peoples supporting the war effort in World War II as an example), now it is seen as a perversion of our natural desires, of our very striving for freedom.
Without some consideration of the power of our instincts, and a practice to control and harness this power, what we may call “freedom” is actually servitude to the negative forces of lust, envy, greed and pride that are within us and all around us.

one may not chose this for them selves but anyone realising this must be respected , personaly I am in total agreement with the above ,

My personal opinion is that it is crazy. Really, it's too extreme.

It is as simple as this any serious aspirant will say the same whatever traditionhe or she comes from .

yes of course sex life has its place within a loving relationship , but in the west too much empasis is placed upon sensual pleasures and such pleasures belong to the material world , if one is seriously aspiring towards a spiritual life the taste for physical pleasures needs to be put into some proportionate perspective .

it is neither crazy or too extreme , It may not be the choise you wish to make at this moment but there is a wonderfull much used expression "you canot have your feet in two boats" ,meaning spiritual life and material life , and that at some point you will have to choose between the two .that point is up to you.

If you decide to be a monk an join an Ashram... but most ashrams are not celibate I don't think? At least not mine.
Anyway, if you do decide to be a Sanyassin and save your sexual energy to have more powerful meditations, and really devote your life to reach Moksha then sure I can respect it. But within marriage unless you are going to produce a child?

yes, I think the line is , ... it saves un wanted progeny !, ... it allso saves many other problems some posts here seem to state that a marraige is held together by the sexual relationship , what happened to love and respect for another ? if a marraige is no longer tenable without sex then it is a false marraige based upon (as the original post describes) lust !

I think its sad and unnecessary, living with someone can be hard enough, but to never have sex, it would only work for so long after a while you would start to get irritated with each other (more irritated than usual).
Having intimacy is very good for couples, it strengthens the relationship and keeps the bind between them.

Maya

I am not suggesting that you give up sex but concider this , ...try giving it up for a short period of time , try living with your partner and descovering the other important factors of a relationship which bind two souls together , there is so much more to a relationship and so many other forms of love which in truth are the bindingcord .
If two persons are committed to a marraige there are many hurdles to be overcome and the practice of dicipline can be very usefull , you say living together can be"hard enough" ... so again for the exercise consider also what makes life hard , and consider the added strain we place upon a relationship by holding on to the "negative forces of lust, envy, greed and pride" through dicipline we can remove much of the strains of life , try asking what is this irritation and where does it come from ?.... desire !

a true marraige is a relationship and a commitment to loving support and co operation ,and a true spiritual marraige is one in which two people aspire to progress upon a path together . if one wishes then to include children into the equasion then that marraige is the perfect place to raise a child .

sorry I am not intending this to appear as a lecture , but simply concider it advice from an older sister

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

...everywhere.

Very true !!! It concerns me most when I see it in myself.

 

[ratikala]

dear wanabe ji

Very true !!! It concerns me most when I see it in myself.

not wanting to offend , but at least you see it , one who sees his or her weakness takes shelter of the lord and in time becomes strong ....

it is those that do not reflect upon human weakness that assume to be elevated and subsequently fall down .

jai to all humble servants :bow:

 

[Vinayaka]

Another problem with the 'be extremely disciplined' approach is that when one fails, they can fall into the 'beating oneself up emotionally' syndrome which probably does more harm that good.

Recently, I have been hearing 'Tools, not rules" as a remedy for this. All of our sadhanas are tools. In western religious thinking, it is often presented as rules. When its presented as a tool for betterment, then there is an implied reason for doing stuff. This leads to a better understanding of the whys, rather than the old "we do it because we've always done it' sort of simplistic thinking.

 

[Maya3]

dear maya

returning to the article you originaly sited , .....
one may not chose this for them selves but anyone realising this must be respected , personaly I am in total agreement with the above ,

I have nothing against people who decide that this is what they want to do. What I do object to is the requirement.

yes of course sex life has its place within a loving relationship , but in the west too much empasis is placed upon sensual pleasures and such pleasures belong to the material world , if one is seriously aspiring towards a spiritual life the taste for physical pleasures needs to be put into some proportionate perspective .

Honestly, I think it will be put into perspective by itself. There isn't that much time in a day, you go to work, you go home, you cook, you eat, you clean, you sleep.... etc.

it is neither crazy or too extreme , It may not be the choise you wish to make at this moment but there is a wonderfull much used expression "you canot have your feet in two boats" ,meaning spiritual life and material life , and that at some point you will have to choose between the two .that point is up to you.

I think you CAN have your feet in two boots. It just takes longer.

yes, I think the line is , ... it saves un wanted progeny !, ... it allso saves many other problems some posts here seem to state that a marraige is held together by the sexual relationship , what happened to love and respect for another ? if a marraige is no longer tenable without sex then it is a false marraige based upon (as the original post describes) lust !

You can use birth control.
There is room for love and respect and friendship as well as sex. In fact sex strengthens these bonds of friendship and respect.

I am not suggesting that you give up sex but concider this , ...try giving it up for a short period of time , try living with your partner and descovering the other important factors of a relationship which bind two souls together , there is so much more to a relationship and so many other forms of love which in truth are the bindingcord .

My husband and i have been married for 18 years. Believe me I know that there are other important factors in a relationship.

If two persons are committed to a marraige there are many hurdles to be overcome and the practice of dicipline can be very usefull , you say living together can be"hard enough" ... so again for the exercise consider also what makes life hard , and consider the added strain we place upon a relationship by holding on to the "negative forces of lust, envy, greed and pride" through dicipline we can remove much of the strains of life , try asking what is this irritation and where does it come from ?.... desire !

a true marraige is a relationship and a commitment to loving support and co operation ,and a true spiritual marraige is one in which two people aspire to progress upon a path together . if one wishes then to include children into the equasion then that marraige is the perfect place to raise a child .

sorry I am not intending this to appear as a lecture , but simply concider it advice from an older sister

You know, I didn't ask you for marriage advice. And what makes you think you are older than me? I don't need to try any celibacy exercises. Life gets in the way, there are plenty of natural times when there is no time for sex.
Please don't make assumptions.

Maya