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Catholics

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Corban, Sep 28, 2004.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Now you are getting it. I think you are stuck by your definition of baptism. It does not only mean being dunked into water. Some Protestants consider any Baptism not by full immersion in water to be invalid.... my point is, many faiths have a definition of how baptism "works".... this is ours.

    There are three valid forms of Baptism: blood, desire, and by water.

    A good example of a baptism by desire is someone who comes to know Jesus later in life. Saved by the grace of God, the man wants to go to a Priest and be Baptised in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Bible. On the way to the Church, the man is struck by a car and killed. Catholics don't believe that this man would go to hell because he did not have a Baptism by water in a Church. I believe God is merciful.
    What I would like you to eventually understand is that the Sacraments are physical representations of the grace of God. Sacraments convey the power of God, not the power of the sacrament. All glory and honor are due to God alone....the sacraments are useless without the power of God.

    Hope this gets you closer.
    Scott
     
  2. Corban

    Corban Member

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    "The Decree for the Armenians"

    Holy Baptism holds the first place among the sacraments, because it is the door of the spiritual life; for by it we are made members of Christ and incorporated with the Church. And since through the first man death entered into all, unless we be born again of WATER and the Holy Ghost, we can not enter into the kingdom of Heaven, as Truth Himself has told us. The matter of this sacrament is true and natural WATER; and it is indifferent whether it be cold or hot. The form is: I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. We do not, however, deny that the words: Let this servant of Christ be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; or: This person is baptized by my hands in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, constitute true baptism; because since the principal cause from which baptism has its efficacy is the Holy Trinity, and the instrumental cause is the minister who confers the sacrament exteriorly, then if the act exercised by the minister be expressed, together with the invocation of the Holy Trinity, the sacrament is perfected. The minister of this sacrament is the priest, to whom it belongs to baptize, by reason of his office, In case of necessity, however, not only a priest or deacon, but even a layman or woman, nay, even a pagan or heretic can baptize, provided he observes the form used by the Church, and intends to perform what the Church performs. The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all sin, original and actual; likewise of all punishment which is due for sin. As a consequence, no satisfaction for past sins is enjoined upon those who are baptized; and if they die before they commit any sin, they attain immediately to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God."

    So i just want to be clear, I can just desire to be baptised and that's good enough, Water baptism is not necessary. is that correct
     
  3. Corban

    Corban Member

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    1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."

    And these people, it's okay not only to merely desire baptism, but if you would have had the desire, even though you never did, that's sufficient for salvation?
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what the point of posting the decree was.....

    A desire, yes.... coupled with the intention to be baptised by water as soon as possible.

    Yep.

    Let's see if you can answer a few for yourself now.

    Do all those who are not in the LDS go to hell?

    If I never read the Book of Mormon, do I go to hell?

    If I believe Joseph Smith was a fraud, do I go to hell?

    :D
    Scott
     
  5. Corban

    Corban Member

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    that's cute scott, but if you want to discuss mormonism let's start a new thread, this is a Catholic thread, whose purpose is to look at the Catholic faith, if you can't do that with out attacking another faith, let's find some Catholics who can.

    So let's examine that Catholic belief you just mentioned. To recapp, we've discovered baptism is required, but not really because you only have to desire it, but then again you don't actually have to do that, you can fulfill the necessity of baptism if you would have had the desire, even though you never did.
    So my question, I remember when Christ said except a man be born of water and of the spirit he can not enter the kingdom, but i can't recall when he said except a man have the desire, or would have had the desire, to be born of water he can not enter the kingdom. Where did that doctrine come from?
     
  6. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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  7. Corban

    Corban Member

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    alright apparently Scott has dropped out, Are there any Catholics out there that can answer my questions? I would love if someone would step in. there are alot of catholics in the world, let's see if we can find one to help answer my questions

    And to Scott, i didn't say i wouldn't answer your question, i said this isn't the place, I started this thread to discuss catholicism, if you want to discuss Mormonism, start a new thread and i would be more than happy to meet you there.
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Corban,

    It does help in a discussion to understand the mind-set of the person who you are chatting with. Those questions were not just about the Mormon faith, but about what you believe. I don't even know if you know what baptism is, or if you do, if you believe it is salvific.

    I will still bow out..... I can't have a discussion with someone I don't understand...... your questions don't make any sense to me without knowing your backround.

    Oooops, maybe this is off topic too!
     
  9. Corban

    Corban Member

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    my questions are very simple and easy to understand, the problem is the quotes you gave me don't makes sense with what you have told me, that's a very simple dilemma.

    and for whoever can answer these questions, just speak to me then as someon who knows nothing about the catholic faith, as I've been informed i do not. Just explain your beliefs and answer my simple questions, it shouldn't be that hard. there are alot of Catholics out there, i know your religion is confusing but surely someone can answer my questions, we haven't even been past the fundamental doctrine of baptism, so someone should be able to step in.
     
  10. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to get many takers. You had one of the best and most informed in Scott, and (in both understanding and debate) one has to honestly listen to what the other person is saying.
     
  11. Corban

    Corban Member

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    have you read the thread, my question was very basic and very simple, if i had one of the best and most informed it doesn't speak well for the catholic church. I'll restate my question, someone please answer. Scott said baptism is necessary, Jesus said baptism is necessary, we're good so far, Scott said all you had to do was desire baptism, and not even that you didn't have to really desire, I don't remember Jesus saying that. Where did that doctrine come from?
     
  12. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    :) Yes, I usually try to do that before stating anything on it, thanks.


    Hmm... According to what I'm reading you guys' posts, it looks like that's the sticking point. If I'm interpreting this correctly, it's answered in this post of Scotts.

    But your goal, if I understand it, is to try to figure out where Jesus said this was true, as opposed to the feelings of humans or the doctrine of the Church? Am I understanding this correctly?
     
  13. Corban

    Corban Member

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    My goal, is to examine the Catholic faith, that means not only understanding their teachings, but the source and evolution of those teachings. Scott stated a desire or even the possibility for a desire is sufficient. The next step then is seeing where that belief came from, based on the common Christian foundation of the bible and the teaching of Jesus that baptism was necessary, when where and how did the belief that merely desire is neccessar come into the Catholic faith. That is my question.

    It is based on the underlying asssumption that the bible is true and the validity of doctrine can be weighed against this. if it conflicts then the next step would be to either 1. answer the conflict, ie, show how the bible actually supports your belief, or 2. show where that teaching came if a source outside of the bible.
     
  14. Corban

    Corban Member

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    Do the doctrines of Catholicism supersede the Bible. Has the pope received new revelation that adds to the doctrine taught therein. In this post, i was informed of a doctrine of that is not taught in the bible. was it revealed to the pope? or how did it come about
     
  15. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps it was revealed to the Pope due to his place in the papal lineage.

    For the sake of argument lets say it was.

    What do you make of that?

    By the way I am a Catholic apostate.
     
  16. Gunga_ann

    Gunga_ann Member

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    When you are a baby you might not have the desire to be baptised. You really don't know what is going on. When you get older, and have the chance to receive Confirmation, then you really need to have a desire. At Confirmation-which is an awesome sacrement-we say yes to God, and to the Catholic Church. We say yes that we want to be members of the church. We receive the Holy Spirit and are anointed to prepare us for the task that is ahead of us. That is when we truly need the desire.
     
  17. Gunga_ann

    Gunga_ann Member

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    Many Doctrines come from the Bible. Most everything has it's beginings in the Bible. There are some things that come from tradition. Tradition is a HUGE part of the Catholic faith, a beautiful part of it. Which doctrine are you refering to?
     
  18. Corban

    Corban Member

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    that you don't have to be baptised, just have to have the desire, or the possibility of the desire to be baptised.
     
  19. Corban

    Corban Member

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    The real question at hand, and the underlying question, do the doctrines of the catholic church go beyond the bible? ie. does the church receive new revelation to guide its doctrine, or is the doctrine simply led by an interpretation of the bible?
     
  20. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Corban,

    The Church came before the Bible and decided which books should be included and excluded from the Bible........ the Church views Scripture and Tradition as equal.

    Scripture itself shows the importance of Tradition:
    Matt. 15:3 - Jesus condemns human traditions that void God's word. Some Protestants use this verse to condemn all tradition. But this verse has nothing to do with the tradition we must obey that was handed down to us from the apostles. (Here, the Pharisees, in their human tradition, gave goods to the temple to avoid taking care of their parents, and this voids God's law of honoring one's father and mother.)

    Mark 7:9 - this is the same as Matt. 15:3 - there is a distinction between human tradition (that we should reject) and apostolic tradition (that we must accept).

    Acts 2:42 - the members obeyed apostolic tradition (doctrine, prayers, and the breaking of bread). Their obedience was not to the Scriptures alone. Tradition (in Greek, "paradosis") means "to hand on" teaching.

    Acts 20:7 - this verse gives us a glimpse of Christian worship on Sunday, but changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday is understood primarily from oral apostolic tradition.

    John 17:20 - Jesus prays for all who believe in Him through the oral word of the apostles. Jesus protects oral apostolic teaching.

    1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful for maintaining the apostolic tradition that they have received. The oral word is preserved and protected by the Spirit.

    Phil. 4:9 - Paul says that what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do. This refers to learning from his preaching and example, which is apostolic tradition.

    2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul commands us to obey oral apostolic tradition. He says stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or letter. This verse proves that for apostolic authority, oral and written communications are on par with each other. Protestants must find a verse that voids this commandment to obey oral tradition elsewhere in the Bible, or they are not abiding by the teachings of Scripture.

    2 Thess. 2:15 - in fact, it was this apostolic tradition that allowed the Church to select the Bible canon (apostolicity from tradition). The Bible is an apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church. Other examples of apostolic tradition include the teachings on the Blessed Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), the assumption of Mary, and knowing that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.

    2 Thess. 3:6 - Paul again commands the faithful to live in accord with the tradition that they received from the apostles.

    2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul tells them they already know how to imitate the elders. He is referring them to the tradition they have learned by his oral preaching and example.

    1 Tim. 6:20 - guard what has been "entrusted" to you. The word "entrusted" is "paratheke" which means a "deposit." Oral tradition is part of what the Church has always called the Deposit of Faith.

    2 Tim. 2:2 - Paul says what you have heard from me entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. This is "tradition," or the handing on of apostolic teaching.

    2 Tim. 3:14 - continue in what you have learned and believed knowing from whom you learned it (by oral tradition).

    www.scripturecatholic.com
     
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