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Catholics

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Corban, Sep 28, 2004.

  1. Corban

    Corban Member

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    I was recently informed that i don't understand christ's true church (for those who don't know apparently it's the Catholics) so i wanted to start this thread where some of my and others misconceptions can be cleared up.

    Let's start with this, there is no salvation outside of this church. Can a non-catholic be saved, someone who doesn't believe in the catholic doctine and has not been baptised by a catholic priest
     
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  2. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    If you're referring to this thread, the person who was being spoken to was a person who'd taken a position of hatred, obviously not you. I'm sure you are a kind and reasonable person who would not try inferring that your interpretation of another thread is enough to say that all Catholics believe such a thing.
     
  3. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    FeathersinHair,

    Nah, don't worry about this thread... I got it.:D

    I believe our pal Corbin here is just dying to attack Catholic doctrine.... this thread is a lame attempt at a "question".... but, I'll take the bait.

    Here ya go Corbin.... just remember, you only get one shot.... any anti-Catholic nonesense and we are done.

    Yes, it's possible.

    No salvation outside the Church?

    I will try to clarify what that means to us today:
    To begin, I believe that it was Vatican II that began to define today's revealed truth about this topic, and specifically:
    DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
    LUMEN GENTIUM
    SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HOLINESS
    POPE PAUL VI
    ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

    16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.
    This teaching was clarified in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
    "Outside the Church there is no salvation"
    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

    847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

    848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
    My lay person's take on the subject is as follows:
    846.........
    "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."
    There is no salvation outside of the Church for CATHOLICS who believe that the RCC was founded by Christ and then REJECT IT.
    NON-Catholics, 847............Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
    To believe that Christ founded the Church, that his body, blood, soul, and divinity is present in the Eucharist and then WALK AWAY from it would be insane.
    I am not saying that everyone should believe the teaching of the RCC, but just try to understand that for those WHO DO believe, and still refuse to enter in or to leave the Church there is NO SALVATION.
    I hope this helps clear up any confusion about this topic.
    I wonder if you'll actually read any of this or just fire away with the anti-Catholic stuff right away. We shall see.

    Scott
     
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  4. Corban

    Corban Member

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    "He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door."

    So how are those ignorant of the truth to be saved, when are they to recieve baptism, or is baptism not necessary for the ignorant.
     
  5. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

    1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

    1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

    1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
     
  6. Gunga_ann

    Gunga_ann Member

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    If people don't know about God, Jesus, or anything like that, then God understands. Its more our falut for them not knowing it. But, God understands the different reasons in the world.
     
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  7. Corban

    Corban Member

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    Scott,

    i just wanted to drop a quick note. Thanks for your willingness to discuss your religion with someone who obviously doesn't share your views. I am in the midst of a very busy week and can't devote time to this right now, i hope we can continue this next week. thanks
     
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  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    My hat is off to you Corban... thanks for the note. Take your time and have a good week.



     
  9. Rex

    Rex Founder

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    I congrats both of you to learning and non-disrespect . !!!
     
  10. Dave

    Dave Member

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    Catholics believe that a person who, through no fault of their own, hasn't heard of Christ yet who sincerely strives to live as he truly feels God wants him to live CAN go to heaven. But the real question is, WILL they go there? We can't know that; that's up to God to decide. Besides, without the benefit of the sacraments of baptism, penance, and the Eucharist, all of which are highly important, as they provide necessary graces to do good and avoid evil, someone who hasn't known about Christ, regardless of whether or not it's his fault or not, would probably have a harder time of getting there.
     
  11. Corban

    Corban Member

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    That's an interesting set of quotes. For my next question i would like to examine how the church came to that belief, if it's universally accepted and when they started believing that way. but for now lets deal with what we have.

    So, what about the people, like me and many others around the world, who are familiar with the Catholic faith and will not be baptised? what's going to happen to us,
     
  12. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Corban,

    Hello again...... I pray you had a good week.
    Looking forward to it.
    Well, two things: #1 I would have to disagree that you are familiar with the Catholic faith... meaning the teachings and history of the Church, which is more relevant to this discussion than a general knowledge of the existance of a Church calling itself "Catholic".

    #2 It seems you did not read those "interesting" quotes or they were not clear enough. Once again:
    What happens to you and those like you who don't know or understand the Gospel of Christ or his Church, we don't claim to know the will of God.... but we don't profess that anyone who believes as you do will certainly go to "hell"..... we leave judgement to God and his Divine Son, and leave open the possiblity that you may achieve eternal salvation through the fathomless mercy of God.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  13. Corban

    Corban Member

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    "What happens to you and those like you who don't know or understand the Gospel of Christ or his Church, we don't claim to know the will of God.... but we don't profess that anyone who believes as you do will certainly go to "hell"..... we leave judgement to God and his Divine Son, and leave open the possiblity that you may achieve eternal salvation through the fathomless mercy of God.

    Peace,
    Scott"

    So, in essence your saying that the Catholic church does not know what it takes to be saved, but that you at least know that baptism in the Catholic church is not necessary for salvation.
     
  14. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you are following along....... the Catholic church does not profess to know with certainty who is NOT saved. Baptism is most certainly necessary for salvation, Christ said so.

    Scott
     
  15. Corban

    Corban Member

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    alright, then please explain for me the previous quotes with reference to the nessecity of baptism. if those who lived with out a knowledge of the church, and children who die before they are baptised can be saved, and baptism is necessary for salvation, then when do they recieve baptism?
     
  16. Corban

    Corban Member

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    alright, then please explain to me how your previous quotes coincide with reference to the nessecity of baptism. if those who lived with out a knowledge of the church, and children who die before they are baptised can be saved, and baptism is necessary for salvation, then when do they recieve baptism?
     
  17. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Now I now you're not actually reading my posts.....

    The answer to your question was already answered in post #5.

    Scott
     
  18. Corban

    Corban Member

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    no i'm reading your posts, the problem is your quotes conflict with your statements. The quotes say you can be saved with out baptism, yet you just told me baptism is necessary for salvation, so i would like you to clear that up
     
  19. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Read post #5 again. I can't make it any clearer than what was already posted. If there is a specific word or sentence that you don't understand, let me know and we can break it down.

    Maybe you should move on to another question, or let me know about YOUR views for a change.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  20. Corban

    Corban Member

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    "1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

    1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament."

    Here's a coupl I don't get, do these not say Baptism is not required? Does a desire for baptism really constitute baptism.
     
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