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Featured catholics, orthodox, and protestants: can you explain the trinity?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Meandflower, Jul 23, 2021.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Neither.

    Again: "essence".
     
  2. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    So you believe the three persons (the father, jesus, holy spirit) is three beings in one being? So you believe the father, Jesus, holy spirit is three beings and one being at the same time?

    If you believe this then you do not believe in the offical trinity doctrine.

    The offical trinity doctrine is that God is only one Being. That the three persons of God (the father, jesus, holy spirit) share one Being. Because God is only one.
     
    #162 Meandflower, Aug 9, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The official trinitarian doctrine, held by all three divisions of the Christian church, is that there is "One God, three persons." Metis is absolutely correct in using the word essense -- it is the best translation of homoousios
     
  4. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Though the trinity is discussed and taught throughout the Christian churches. No one really understands it. It was unknown up to about the third century. But today is regarded as fundamental to Christian belief.
    Catholics call it and regard it as a mystery. Which is possibly the easiest approach as then understanding is not essential to faith.

    It is perhaps the only way to square the circle of believing that there is only one God.
    When you want to believe that both Jesus and God are also gods.

    I prefer to believe that only God is God. And that such power as Jesus and the Holy Spirit have, derives from God. And that they do not have the power to depart from the will of God, so are always subordinate, to that will.
    Effectively they are agents of God.
     
  5. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    According to the offical trinity doctrine the word essence, substance and being has the same meaning.

    According to the offical trinity doctrine God is three persons who share one being/substance/essence
     
  6. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

    Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

    Now this is the catholic faith:

    That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
    neither blending their persons
    nor dividing their essence.
    For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
    the person of the Son is another,
    and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
    But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
    their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

    What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
    The Father is uncreated,
    the Son is uncreated,
    the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

    The Father is immeasurable,
    the Son is immeasurable,
    the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

    The Father is eternal,
    the Son is eternal,
    the Holy Spirit is eternal.

    And yet there are not three eternal beings;
    there is but one eternal being.
    So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
    there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.


    Similarly, the Father is almighty,
    the Son is almighty,
    the Holy Spirit is almighty.
    Yet there are not three almighty beings;
    there is but one almighty being.


    Thus the Father is God,
    the Son is God,
    the Holy Spirit is God.
    Yet there are not three gods;
    there is but one God.


    Thus the Father is Lord,
    the Son is Lord,
    the Holy Spirit is Lord.
    Yet there are not three lords;
    there is but one Lord.


    Just as Christian truth compels us
    to confess each person individually
    as both God and Lord,
    so catholic religion forbids us
    to say that there are three gods or lords.


    The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
    The Son was neither made nor created;
    he was begotten from the Father alone.
    The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
    he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

    Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
    there is one Son, not three sons;
    there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

    Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
    nothing is greater or smaller;
    in their entirety the three persons
    are coeternal and coequal with each other.

    So in everything, as was said earlier,
    we must worship their trinity in their unity
    and their unity in their trinity.

    Anyone then who desires to be saved
    should think thus about the trinity.

    But it is necessary for eternal salvation
    that one also believe in the incarnation
    of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

    Now this is the true faith:

    That we believe and confess
    that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
    is both God and human, equally.

    He is God from the essence of the Father,
    begotten before time;
    and he is human from the essence of his mother,
    born in time;
    completely God, completely human,
    with a rational soul and human flesh;
    equal to the Father as regards divinity,
    less than the Father as regards humanity.

    Although he is God and human,
    yet Christ is not two, but one.
    He is one, however,
    not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
    but by God's taking humanity to himself.
    He is one,
    certainly not by the blending of his essence,
    but by the unity of his person.
    For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
    so too the one Christ is both God and human.

    He suffered for our salvation;
    he descended to hell;
    he arose from the dead;
    he ascended to heaven;
    he is seated at the Father's right hand;
    from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
    At his coming all people will arise bodily
    and give an accounting of their own deeds.
    Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
    and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

    This is the catholic faith.
     
    #166 Meandflower, Aug 14, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2021
  7. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    According to the offical trinity doctrine the word essence, substance and being has the same meaning.

    According to the offical trinity doctrine God is three persons who share one being/substance/essen
     
  8. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

    Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

    Now this is the catholic faith:

    That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
    neither blending their persons
    nor dividing their essence.
    For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
    the person of the Son is another,
    and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
    But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
    their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

    What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
    The Father is uncreated,
    the Son is uncreated,
    the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

    The Father is immeasurable,
    the Son is immeasurable,
    the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

    The Father is eternal,
    the Son is eternal,
    the Holy Spirit is eternal.

    And yet there are not three eternal beings;
    there is but one eternal being.
    So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
    there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being
    .

    Similarly, the Father is almighty,
    the Son is almighty,
    the Holy Spirit is almighty.
    Yet there are not three almighty beings;
    there is but one almighty being.


    Thus the Father is God,
    the Son is God,
    the Holy Spirit is God.
    Yet there are not three gods;
    there is but one God.


    Thus the Father is Lord,
    the Son is Lord,
    the Holy Spirit is Lord.
    Yet there are not three lords;
    there is but one Lord.


    Just as Christian truth compels us
    to confess each person individually
    as both God and Lord,
    so catholic religion forbids us
    to say that there are three gods or lords.


    The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
    The Son was neither made nor created;
    he was begotten from the Father alone.
    The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
    he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

    Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
    there is one Son, not three sons;
    there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

    Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
    nothing is greater or smaller;
    in their entirety the three persons
    are coeternal and coequal with each other.

    So in everything, as was said earlier,
    we must worship their trinity in their unity
    and their unity in their trinity.

    Anyone then who desires to be saved
    should think thus about the trinity.

    But it is necessary for eternal salvation
    that one also believe in the incarnation
    of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

    Now this is the true faith:

    That we believe and confess
    that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
    is both God and human, equally.

    He is God from the essence of the Father,
    begotten before time;
    and he is human from the essence of his mother,
    born in time;
    completely God, completely human,
    with a rational soul and human flesh;
    equal to the Father as regards divinity,
    less than the Father as regards humanity.

    Although he is God and human,
    yet Christ is not two, but one.
    He is one, however,
    not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
    but by God's taking humanity to himself.
    He is one,
    certainly not by the blending of his essence,
    but by the unity of his person.
    For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
    so too the one Christ is both God and human.

    He suffered for our salvation;
    he descended to hell;
    he arose from the dead;
    he ascended to heaven;
    he is seated at the Father's right hand;
    from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
    At his coming all people will arise bodily
    and give an accounting of their own deeds.
    Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
    and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

    This is the catholic faith.
     
    #168 Meandflower, Aug 14, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2021
  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    And there is but one essence, one God, according to trinitarianism..
     
    #169 IndigoChild5559, Aug 14, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    Correct. According to the offical trinity doctrine God is only one essence/being/substance. Because God is one.
    So God is one essence/substance/being shared by three persons.
     
  11. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Hello Meandflower good to meet you.
    First thing to consider is.. "God is perfect"! God does all things perfectly, if he did not then he would not be perfect he would NOT be God!

    Second thing is: "God is Love" the scriptures tell you in a few places "God is Love"! Perfect love says.. "You cannot love yourself!" Love of self is called "Selfishness!"
    To love: You >>MUST<< let go of self; you >>MUST<< give of your self at your own expense to another person! Read Matthew 25 those who go to heaven are righteous they "Do Right"! They "GIVE" a cup of water to a child, they visit the sick.. etc! Basically it is giving of your "Time, Talent and Treasure!

    Third: For God to love perfectly he needs another to love! God cannot have perfect love if he is ONE God needs a second person to love to give himself too! IF....

    Meandflower
    if there is perfect love, there is two persons; for all time God has had another to love or he would not be perfect, he would NOT be God!
    John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    .
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
    .
     
  12. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    First thing to consider is.. "God is perfect"! God does all things perfectly, if he did not then he would not be perfect he would NOT be God!

    Second thing is: "God is Love" the scriptures tell you in a few places "God is Love"! Perfect love says.. "You cannot love yourself!" Love of self is called "Selfishness!"
    To love: You >>MUST<< let go of self; you >>MUST<< give of your self at your own expense to another person! Read Matthew 25 those who go to heaven are righteous they "Do Right"! They "GIVE" a cup of water to a child, they visit the sick.. etc! Basically it is giving of your "Time, Talent and Treasure!

    Third: For God to love perfectly he needs another to love! God cannot have perfect love if he is ONE God needs a second person to love to give himself too! IF....

    ChristineM
    if there is perfect love, there is two persons; for all time God has had another to love or he would not be perfect, he would NOT be God!
    John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    .
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

    Perfect love creates (to make it a little easier to understand).. The second there was God the father there had to be God the son (the word) because God id PERFECT he is Love! The second there was God the Father and the Word there was the Holy Spirit the fruit of Perfect love!
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The word shared kind of implies that each person is part of that essence. If that is what you meant, then that would not be Trinitatarianism, since it doesn't teach that each person is a part. But I'm probably just picking at what is simply your best attempt to put it into words... At any rate, remember that I am not personally a Trinitarian. For Jews, the oneness is quite simple. No "father, son and holy spirit."
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    To me it is all three divisions of 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian ) the fake ' weed/tares '.
    The Christian Bible teaches pre-human heavenly Jesus had a heavenly beginning according to Revelation 3:14 B
    God had No beginning, God being from everlasting - Psalms 90:2
    Whereas, Jesus was "IN" the beginning but Not 'before' the beginning as his God was 'before' the beginning.
    Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, the Word became flesh (No Scripture says God became flesh) God sent pre-human Jesus to Earth for us.
    The 'Word' stands for: Jesus as God's spokesman.
    Psalms 104:30 says God sends forth His spirit, Not sends forth the fruit of Perfect love.
    I find the 'fruit of perfect love' is just one of God's attributes or qualities listed at Galatians 5:22-23.
    One person told me there is No such thing as perfect, a round wedding ring is still Not perfect, but flawed.
    I would Not disagree with that measuring, but a wedding ring is completely or perfectly useful for a wedding.

    At the soon coming 'time of separation' on Earth Jesus as King 'of God's kingdom' - Daniel 2:44-45 - will judge the figurative 'sheep and goats' according to Matthew 25:40 by the way people treat Jesus' spiritual brothers.
     
  16. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is just my best attempt to explain the trinity. I know it is not 100% correct.

    Yes i know jews is not trinitarians :blush: so i know you believe in strict monotheism, that you believe God is only one person. I also do not believe in the trinity. I believe also in strict monotheism
     
  17. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you. I believe Jesus is not God Almighty himself. And i agree the Bible teach that Jesus is God's only begotten son, the first of all creations.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  18. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    .
    John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

    and the Word was with God, & The Word became flesh
     
  19. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    .
    John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

    and the Word was with God, & The Word became flesh
     
  20. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    .
    URAVIP2ME God is perfect! If God was NOT perfect he would not be God!
    Same with Jesus... Jesus cannot sin .. If Jesus did sin he would NOT be perfect he would not be God! ADAM....

    URAVIP2ME Adam the first perfect man sinned! He freely with "Free Will" chose to sin! Adam disobeyed God, Adam did not love God, we know this because; keeping God' commands is love for God!

    1 John 3:24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

    1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

    God COMMANDED Adam not to eat!! 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of... etc..
    URAVIP2ME..... Adam did not love God! So Adam was removed from heaven only those who love can enter, Adam made a choice to "SIN"!!
    Jesus rose from the dead because he was sinless..... "The wages of sin is death!" Jesus could not be held by death: Jesus rose from death sinless! YOU CAN'T....

    URAVIP2ME you can't even kill a stinking no good mangy dog twice to each is allowed only ONE death! Jesus died his one time.. Jesus has been there and done that! Jesus lives forever NEVER EVER to die again... WHAT....

    URAVIP2ME what we have to do is get ourselves IMMERSED into the can't die body of Jesus! All Immersed (baptized) into the Holy Body of Jesus will also live forever! Baptism ADDS us the the Body of Jesus...
    40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

    URAVIP2ME 3000 were ADDED to the Holy Body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost... By baptism!

    URAVIP2ME Baptism ADDS us to the can't die body of Jesus; communion KEEPS US IN the living forever body of Jesus!
    53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
     
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