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Featured catholics, orthodox, and protestants: can you explain the trinity?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Meandflower, Jul 23, 2021.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply.
    Yes, the 'Word' was ' with ' someone. Someone in the beginning and that Someone was his God.
    When we are ' with ' our father we are Not our father but are two separate persons.
    According to Psalm 90:2 God had No beginning: meaning God was 'before ' anything else.
    So, for Jesus to be " IN " the beginning shows Jesus was Not 'before' the beginning as his God was.
    When God sent His pre-human heavenly Son to Earth for us is when Jesus became flesh ( fleshly birth on Earth )
    The same Greek grammar rule applies at both: John 1 and Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B.
    The letter ' a ' we find inserted at Acts 28:6 in front of the word god but the 'a' omitted at John 1 (Not consistent)
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the setting or time frame for John 6:53 takes place a year or so 'before' the Last Supper.
    This means: those crowds knew nothing at that time about the coming New covenant.
    At John 6:35 Jesus likens himself to the ' bread of life ' ( bread of course being a blood-less eatable )
    Blood-less as Manna was, but Jesus (flesh) would be the Superior Manna.
    ( Jesus was also: a figurative door, lamp, vine, shepherd, Cornerstone, bridegroom.....)
    At John 6:38-40 please notice that Jesus stresses the doing of God's Will. There Jesus connects God's will with believing, and belief is connected with labor or the work of God as mentioned at John 6:27-29.
    So, Not to work for the food (Manna) that perishes, but for Jesus the figurative 'bread of life'.
    Hebrews 9:24-26 explains Jesus' ransom sacrifice is Not that he should offer himself often, but now once, and once to die - Hebrews 10:12-14 - again shows once and one sacrifice, only one offering, only one singular offering.
    'Once' would Not make Jesus an endless supply of blood like a reservoir to be tapped into like a blood bank.
    We find at Matthew 13:34 Jesus would Not address the crowds without a parable illustration, so that means the verses in John chapter 6 are figurative as John 6:35 ; John 6:40 shows. So, John chapter 6 is illustrative.
    The reason those Jews found Jesus' words so repulsive was because of Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:10.
    They were forbidden to consume blood and flesh. Cannibalism was repulsive to them - 2 Kings 6:26-31.
    There never was the use of flesh and blood used at baptism, but water.

    Yes, the God of Jesus resurrected sinless Jesus because Jesus died a faithful Hero's death for us.
    This is why God granted Jesus to have 'life in himself ' (John 5:26)
    In other words,God resurrecting Jesus shows us that God granted immortality then to Son Jesus.
    If Jesus could Not sin, then Satan would Not have tempted him.
    Each person (human or spirit) is drawn out by one's own desires - James 1:13-15
    Satan started out perfectly sinless, and so did Adam, they chose to disobey God. Jesus had that same choice.

    Yes, Jesus' New Commandment (John 13:34-35) is Not burdensome.
     
  3. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    I reply: Yes the Word became flesh, the word is the creator!
    The "Word was God"!
    You are leaning on semantics to make your point!
    The scriptures tell you "The word made everything!" John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    The word created all things! Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made
    Genesis 1:1
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made
    Psalm 89:47 Remember how fleeting is my life. For what futility you have created all humanity!

    Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

     
  4. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    I reply you have a lot of opinion! Jews are NOT Christian; Christians have always eaten the flesh of Jesus!
    URAVIP2ME Jesus lets them that disagree with eating his flesh leave in their unbelief! Jesus does NOT call them back! Jesus does NOT say "I did not mean what I just told you, don't go It was only symbolic flesh you are to eat!" NO....

    URAVIP2ME no Jesus lets them leave him in their unbelief; in fact Jesus turns to the Apostles and asks them if they also will leave him!
    60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?
    61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
    66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

    67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve
    .

    FACT: Jesus is a unblemished Lamb! They did not break his legs! Jesus is the NEW Passover Lamb!
    1 Corinthians 5:7
    Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

    URAVIP2ME ALL Passover sacrifices MUST be eaten!
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find if you continue reading from verse one down to John 1:18 we read that No man (humans) has seen God.
    People saw Jesus. See also John 6:46 beside what John wrote at 1 John 4:12 - No one has seen God.....

    Yes, through Jesus because Jesus is part of the "us" of Genesis 1:26.
    God is Not first born over all creation. God had No beginning according to Psalm 90:2
    So, only God was ' before' creation, whereas Jesus was "in" the beginning but Not 'before' the beginning.
    At Revelation 4:11 who does Jesus give the creation credit to but to his God__________

    The same Greek grammar rule applies to both John 1 and Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B.
    Translators inserted the letter "a" at Acts but omitted the letter "a" at John.
    Thus, Jesus was "a" God ' Mighty God ' but Not Almighty God.

    Who was at the Father's side (bosom position) according to John 1:18______________
    At Revelation 3:21 who sits with Jesus on his throne, and who sits with Jesus' Father throne ___________
    I find one person does Not sit on two thrones, nor do three persons sit on one throne.
     
  6. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Hello... URAVIP2ME... God is love! God cannot love himself that is NOT love!
    To love you MUSTY give of yourself to another! Tell me Who was there for God to GIVE TO if there was only one!?
    For God to love he needs TWO!

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,..... and the Word was with God, ......and the Word was God

    In the beginning was the Word,
    ... You said it yourself... God was in the beginning!
    URAVIP2ME Question.. Who was in the beginning?

    and the Word was with God, .. Do you see it? Two.. The Word & God were together...Was with God!
    URAVIP2ME Question..,. Who was with God?.... Who was in the beginning?

    and the Word was God.... The WORD WAS GOD!
    URAVIP2ME Question..... Who was the word?

    URAVIP2ME God became Flesh and lived among us!
    Again.. One more time... To have perfect love YOU NEED TWO PERSONS! Two together make perfect love.. ONE (1) person cannot love! One person cannot love except them self; that is called selfishness... NOT love!
    URAVIP2ME God is perfect! To be perfect he needs another to love!
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the Messiah is mentioned and Jesus said He is.

    I believe the fact that all three are God, is the unifying concept. And we have the statement of Jesus: "I and my Father are one."
     
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  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there is a lot slip between the cup and the lip. Things do change. Proving where a change came from is not so easy. And some claims of changes are totally irrational and not provable.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the Nicene creed and the Athanasian Creed are quite different.
     
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  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Well, and that's the big question: was Jesus the messiah? Did he fulfill all the prophecies in the Tanakh? The answer is clearly no. He did not i.e. usher in an era of world peace, or bring all the Jews back to the Promised Land, or rule from Jerusalem... Heck I only needed to provide you with one prophecy he didn't fulfill to prove he is not the messiah, and I've given you three.
     
  11. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    Your explanation is wrong, this is because you wrote " to love! God cannot have perfect love if he is ONE "

    What you desribe is tritheism. A christian heresy. According to the christian faith it is forbidden to say or believe God is more than one God.

    According to the offical trinity God is only one. God is one because God is only one Being. God is one being shared by three persons.

    But if you had written " to love! God cannot have perfect love if he is only one person" then you had described the trinity in a very good way.
     
    #191 Meandflower, Aug 21, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
  12. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    Quite different in what sense?
     
  13. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    According to christians Jesus fullfilled enough prophecies in the Tanakh, and they believe Jesus is the Messiah.

    But according to Jews Jesus did not fullfill enough prophecies in the Tanakh, and they do not believe Jesus is the Messiah.

    It is a matter of which belief a person has.
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Agreed. Thomas Aquinas said that if one took a literalistic position, Jesus being the "Messiah" was not possible, but then Aquinas [nor I] was a literalist.

    BTW, just for the record, I really don't much get into this "Messiah" thingy as I tend to think it was based mostly on wishful thinking-- "Deus ex machina".
     
  15. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Meandflower hello.. I hope all is well..
    I reply: Thank you for the informative post... I think you got the meat of my post... I might have errored in presentation the point is... "Love of self is not perfect love!" Thus it is written..
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

    I add...

    Perfect love creates! The love of the Father for the Son (Word) and the love of the Word for the Father is perfect! It would NOT be perfect love if there was no fruit coming from the Perfect love! IF....

    Meandflower
    if there is perfect love then there must be results or fruit or creation or new life! (take your pick) thus if there is a perfect God (and there is) then there must be two so the perfect God can be perfect! If there is a perfect God (and there is) then there must be results / growth coming from this perfect love!
    Perfect love is not sterile it produces, it creates thus the Holy Spirit comes into being!

    Meandflower from this logical conclusion (above) if there is a perfect God (and there is) then there must be three (3) The Father, The Word and the Result of their perfect love.. The Holy Spirit!

    THE...

    Meandflower
    the very split second there was a God (there always was a God just making it simpler to grasp) there was three (3) there had to be three because "God is Perfect God is Love"!!
     
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    If God does Not love Himself, that means to me 1 John 4:8 would be wrong because it says: " God "IS" love ".
    Yes, God was in the beginning and also as Psalms 90:2 says God is from everlasting or BEFORE the beginning.
    No Scripture says Jesus was BEFORE the beginning.
    Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God according to Revelation 3:14 B.
    Who does Jesus say is worthy as the Creator of all things according to Jesus at Revelation 4:11 ________
    Who does Jesus say as to who should be worshipped at John 4:23-24_________
    How many people have seen God according to John 1:18 __________, but people saw Jesus.
    So, yes, Jesus was God's 'Spokesman' (Word) because Jesus does nothing of himself as per John 5:19.
    I find there are two (2) Lords mentioned at Psalms 110. - Acts of the Apostles 2:34-35
    One God 'the Father' and one Lord according to 1 Corinthians 8:6.
    Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12.
    Who was the One who resurrected dead Jesus - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Acts of the Apostles 2:24,32_______
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I would like to take the liberty to reply that yes Jesus was with God "IN" the beginning but Not BEFORE the beginning.
    Only God is from everlasting or BEFORE the beginning according to Psalms 90:2.
    So, Jesus was "IN" the beginning but Not BEFORE the beginning as his God was - Revelation 4:11.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    How can a neuter "IT" be a person because God's spirit (Psalms 104:30) is a neuter 'it' .
    - Please see Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25 (it)
    Some versions have taken the liberty to change ' it ' to he or him but that does Not make a neuter 'it' a person.
    Just as in English we call a car or a ship as a 'she' but that does not make the neuter car or ship a person.
     
  19. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    URAVIP2ME You have lots of questions...
    Fact is... God is PERFECT God cannot love himself to be PERFECT he MUST have another to Love! God would NOT be God if he was NOT perfect!

    God had another to LOVE or he would not be God. God had another to LOVE or he would not be Perfect!
    If there is a God (and there Is) then there is always two ...two... two not just one! God would not be God without TWO!
    In the beginning was God.. The Father & The Word!

    The WORD was GOD!
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

    God became MAN and live among us!
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
    URAVIP2ME the Word was God
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    And who sent the Word to us from heaven__________
    Without using John 1 what other verses is John using to say Jesus is God or God Jesus __________
     
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