Catholics and Mormons

[jonny]

Yeah, and he also pointed out that the Mormons are the only ones who view grace as a gift, and that no other denominations claim salvation by grace. That's arrogant.

What are you talking about? I didn't say that Mormons are the only Christian religion that views grace as a gift and I didn't say that we were the only Christian denomination that claims salvation by grace.

I said that Mormons were the only Christian denomination that believes Christ saves everyone except those who knowingly reject him. If there is another religion that believes the same way as Mormons on this go ahead and let me know and I'll take the statement back.

 

[jonny]

He didn't say that. He said they were the only ones who view grace as more of a gift than any other denomination.

Exactly. As far as I am aware, faith in Christ required in most Christian demoninations in order to partake of the grace of Christ.

 

[sojourner]

Exactly. As far as I am aware, faith in Christ required in most Christian demoninations in order to partake of the grace of Christ.

But, earlier you said "more than any other." I don't think you can make that kind of superlative claim. The burden of proof lies with you. Can you prove that no other Christian denomination envisions grace as unconditionally as Mormons?

 

[jonny]

But, earlier you said "more than any other." I don't think you can make that kind of superlative claim. The burden of proof lies with you. Can you prove that no other Christian denomination envisions grace as unconditionally as Mormons?

You're the one that has a problem with my statement. If you have a problem you must have a reason for it. Give me an example. I really don't feel like I need to prove anything to you. If I felt like it really mattered I might take the time, but I don't really care.

 

[sojourner]

You're the one that has a problem with my statement. If you have a problem you must have a reason for it. Give me an example. I really don't feel like I need to prove anything to you. If I felt like it really mattered I might take the time, but I don't really care.

You felt that it mattered enough to make the statement in the first place. And yes, I do have a problem with superlative statements that are patently incorrect and make one group appear better than another. The Mormons are not the "only ones who view grace as more of a gift than any other denomination."
I gave you one perfect example, quoted verbatim, of another denomination that views grace as an undeserved gift. Then, you said, " It's the only Christian denomination where Christ saves EVERYONE except those who knowlingly reject him." Ask the Methodists, or the Disciples, or the UCC, or the Episcopalians how they feel about Christ saving those who don't knowingly reject him. I think you'll find that the Mormons don't have a corner on the market of unconditional grace.

 

[jonny]

You felt that it mattered enough to make the statement in the first place. And yes, I do have a problem with superlative statements that are patently incorrect and make one group appear better than another. The Mormons are not the "only ones who view grace as more of a gift than any other denomination."

I gave you one perfect example, quoted verbatim, of another denomination that views grace as an undeserved gift. Then, you said, " It's the only Christian denomination where Christ saves EVERYONE except those who knowlingly reject him." Ask the Methodists, or the Disciples, or the UCC, or the Episcopalians how they feel about Christ saving those who don't knowingly reject him. I think you'll find that the Mormons don't have a corner on the market of unconditional grace.

Mormons also believe grace is an undeserved gift. This is clear in the Book of Mormon. I asked you if Episcopalians believe in a hell. You deferred that question to someone else. Now I'll ask, if they believe in hell, who goes there?

 

[sojourner]

Mormons also believe grace is an undeserved gift. This is clear in the Book of Mormon. I asked you if Episcopalians believe in a hell. You deferred that question to someone else. Now I'll ask, if they believe in hell, who goes there?

I deferred the question, because Luna is Episcopalian. I'm not. Just thought she might like to jump in.

The issue of, "Who goes to hell?" is not the same issue as, "to whom is grace extended?" Grace is extended freely to everyone. All humanity. That's the primary issue here. The issue you raise now with, "who goes to hell?" is, "how is grace accepted or rejected, and what are the consequences of that?"

 

[lunamoth]

I deferred the question, because Luna is Episcopalian. I'm not. Just thought she might like to jump in.

The issue of, "Who goes to hell?" is not the same issue as, "to whom is grace extended?" Grace is extended freely to everyone. All humanity. That's the primary issue here. The issue you raise now with, "who goes to hell?" is, "how is grace accepted or rejected, and what are the consequences of that?"

Yikes, I have not read this thread, not even the OP. But when did I ever let that stop me?!

I'm sure there is a very broad range of interpretation among Episcopalians about hell. The belief that I hold, and that I believe is pretty widely held, is that hell is a state of separation from God.

If you would like more than that I'll do the research for you, but Episcoplians in general do not go around nailing each other down on these kinds of quesitons.

peace,
luna (who will now quickly read the thread)

I read quickly, but it seems the issue is about the claim of 'only' along with 'most extensive grace' that caused the protest. My 2 c, grace is grace whether you preface it with 'most extensive' 'most radical' 'most emcompassing,' that is all redundant. I certainly believe that grace is free and extended to every soul and that in itself is pretty all-encompassing.

 

[jonny]

I deferred the question, because Luna is Episcopalian. I'm not. Just thought she might like to jump in.

The issue of, "Who goes to hell?" is not the same issue as, "to whom is grace extended?" Grace is extended freely to everyone. All humanity. That's the primary issue here. The issue you raise now with, "who goes to hell?" is, "how is grace accepted or rejected, and what are the consequences of that?"

The question for me wasn't ever who grace is extended to. Obviously it is extended to everyone. The question for me was always what you have to do to partake of that grace and receive salvation. In Mormonism you don't have to do anything to receive salvation. That is what I meant when I said that we view it as a gift more than any other denomination. The only people who are not saved by Jesus Christ are those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Every other sin will be forgiven.

 

[jonny]

Just for future reference, this thread is in the Same Faith Debates section and the OP was targeted at Mormons and Catholics...

 

[sojourner]

Just for future reference, this thread is in the Same Faith Debates section and the OP was targeted at Mormons and Catholics...

fine. I'll shut up.:run:

 

[TreeOfLife]

Well, I know a few things that we have in common.

1. We both believe that Christ is the Savior.
2. We both believe that God's Church as a definied organization with established offices
3. We both believe that you must have God's authority (priesthood) in order to administer ordinances (what you call sacraments)
4. We both believe the Bible to be the word of God.
5. We both believe in regular church attendance.
6. We're both anti-abortion
7. We both have strong family values
8. We both belive in the Second Coming of Christ
9. We both believe in doing good to all men

I'm sure there're more, but these are all I can think of right now.

Thank you. That is one of the best list that I have seen.

I am actually baptized in both denominations.
The similarities are wonderful.

Where as protestants require a 2 level understanding for salvation. LDS actually believe the Bible closer to the letter than all protestant denominations.

The 2 tier salvation requirement is as follows. Yes you have to believe in Jesus Christ as in rom 10:9-10. Many other references already.
Second is that you have to believe in there idea of the trinity. That is that Jesus is from eternity to eternity. LDS do not believe that. We believe that Jesus as he states is the first creation of G-d the father as I rev 3;14. Also to create things that are outside of the actual Bible makes the truth of the Bible nullified.
And with that you can create any truth you decide on.

OK. Jere is the problem as I see it. We as Christians are to be united as in Eph 4:11-16.

To me that means to obey the first 2 commandments. If we love our G-d and our brother to that degree then we will NOT deride, chastise, or talk in a negative about anyone. But most if not all protestant denominations call LDS a cult etc. You see the bizarre misunderstanding.

Again. I applaud this list. It is constructive to bring Christianity a little closer to the unity of the faith