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Catholic priesthood authority?

Polaris

Active Member
This question is for RCC and EOC members.

Who, if any, do you view as holding proper priesthood authority that is outside of your respective denomination?

Does the RCC and EOC recognize each others authority as being recognized by God?
 
This question is for RCC and EOC members.

Who, if any, do you view as holding proper priesthood authority that is outside of your respective denomination?

Does the RCC and EOC recognize each others authority as being recognized by God?
From what I understand, the RCC recognizes the validity of the EOC priesthood, but I don't think they return the favor. James could be more specific on that end, though.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
From what I understand, the RCC recognizes the validity of the EOC priesthood, but I don't think they return the favor. James could be more specific on that end, though.
*nods* That's my understanding dear watson. They have legitimate Apostolic authority as it relates to their faculties in their perspective offices.
 

Polaris

Active Member
So now I'll follow up with the same question I've asked the protestants:

How do you reconcile the notion of God-recognized authority in churches that profess potentially contradictory dogmas/doctrines/policies?

Clearly there are differences between the RCC and EOC, are both divinely lead by true priesthood authority despite their contradicting positions on certain issues?
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
So now I'll follow up with the same question I've asked the protestants:

How do you reconcile the notion of God-recognized authority in churches that profess potentially contradictory dogmas/doctrines/policies?

Clearly there are differences between the RCC and EOC, are both divinely lead by true priesthood authority despite their contradicting positions on certain issues?


Great question my friend. Simple: Not all forms of Authority are the same. Priesthood alone does not always equal infallible Orthodox teachings. Priesthood is a type of authority. A priest has the Authority to confect the Holy Sacrifice of the eucharist, hear confessions. etc. He has a general authority to preach and teach. But any "individual" priest or even bishop can error in teaching. That is why the Magisterium ie... the Pope and the Bishops as a "whole" in union with him is necessary. The Popes and the magisterium hold the apostolic Authority via their apostolic succession of Teaching proper doctrine and applying infallible teachings. Christ promised the Pope that he would give him(Alone) the keys to the kingdom of heaven(Matt 16:13-19). Christ promised both the Pope and the Magisterium that they would both have the power to bind and loose dogma and doctrine and make doctrinal decision and actions when they came together in union with the Prime minister in council(Matt 18:15-20). This was played out and demonstrated as the first Pope and magisterium had their first Church council and made authoritative decisions(Acts 15). Notice that they came together in council as the magisterial Authrotiy to bind things. The bishops and priest did not just individually make decisions.

So to our understanding, a priest may still have authority to offer the mass and hear confession and other responsibilities, but that individual priest may still be able to error because he alone is not protected by the Holy spirit they way the magisterium is as Christ promised. Christ instituted different offices for different things. the Papal and Magisteriel office is for teaching authoritatively. the Deacons are for serving the Bishops and Parish. The Priest are a there to offer the sacrifice of Mass etc. true priesthood is determined by apostolic succession, not teaching. Hence you can be a priest and still teach error. Usually you get excommunicated for that or end up splitting with the church eventually. That is what happened with all other Christians. I hope that helps.
 

Polaris

Active Member
Great question my friend. Simple: Not all forms of Authority are the same. Priesthood alone does not always equal infallible Orthodox teachings. Priesthood is a type of authority. A priest has the Authority to confect the Holy Sacrifice of the eucharist, hear confessions. etc. He has a general authority to preach and teach. But any "individual" priest or even bishop can error in teaching. That is why the Magisterium ie... the Pope and the Bishops as a "whole" in union with him is necessary. The Popes and the magisterium hold the apostolic Authority via their apostolic succession of Teaching proper doctrine and applying infallible teachings. Christ promised the Pope that he would give him(Alone) the keys to the kingdom of heaven(Matt 16:13-19). Christ promised both the Pope and the Magisterium that they would both have the power to bind and loose dogma and doctrine and make doctrinal decision and actions when they came together in union with the Prime minister in council(Matt 18:15-20). This was played out and demonstrated as the first Pope and magisterium had their first Church council and made authoritative decisions(Acts 15). Notice that they came together in council as the magisterial Authrotiy to bind things. The bishops and priest did not just individually make decisions.

So to our understanding, a priest may still have authority to offer the mass and hear confession and other responsibilities, but that individual priest may still be able to error because he alone is not protected by the Holy spirit they way the magisterium is as Christ promised. Christ instituted different offices for different things. the Papal and Magisteriel office is for teaching authoritatively. the Deacons are for serving the Bishops and Parish. The Priest are a there to offer the sacrifice of Mass etc. true priesthood is determined by apostolic succession, not teaching. Hence you can be a priest and still teach error. Usually you get excommunicated for that or end up splitting with the church eventually. That is what happened with all other Christians. I hope that helps.

So if I understand correctly... you believe that the EOC has properly authorized Bishops, Priests, Deacons, etc, but they lack the Magisterium and therefore are not authorized to make binding doctrinal decisions. Is that correct?
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
So if I understand correctly... you believe that the EOC has properly authorized Bishops, Priests, Deacons, etc, but they lack the Magisterium and therefore are not authorized to make binding doctrinal decisions. Is that correct?


Yes. that is it in a nutshell.
 

Polaris

Active Member
Yes. that is it in a nutshell.

Does this extend to the Anglican and other protestant churches too?

Is there any point at which (through the proclaiming of false teachings) a Priest's priesthood becomes void?

Or is any Priest with a traceable line of authority always recognized by God as such independent of being guilty of teaching falsehoods?
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Does this extend to the Anglican and other protestant churches too?

Is there any point at which (through the proclaiming of false teachings) a Priest's priesthood becomes void?

Or is any Priest with a traceable line of authority always recognized by God as such independent of being guilty of teaching falsehoods?

This does not extend to anglican orders. Anglicans do not have valid priesthood because they changed thier ordination rites thus invalidating thier preisthood. there priest to us our nothing more than lay people. Prostestants do not have or believe in "ministeriel" priest(with the exception of the Anglican/epsicopal churches). I am not sure about the last question.
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
So to clarify... a RCC or EOC priest cannot lose his priesthood due to teaching false doctrines? God always recognizes his authority independent of what he teaches by it?


Yes this is correct. Once a priest. always a priest(Technically, although you can be removed and laicised the holy orders are still part of you and cannot be removed from your character). You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek as scripture says.
 

Polaris

Active Member
Prostestants do not have or believe in "ministeriel" priest.

So did the adherents of Martin Luther, who received the priesthood under his hand or through his line, hold claim to valid and proper priesthood authority? If so did that line of priesthood become invalidated at some point, therefore invalidating the priesthood authority of Lutherans?
 

Polaris

Active Member
Yes this is correct. Once a priest. always a priest(Technically, although you can be removed and laicised the holy orders are still part of you and cannot be removed from your character). You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek as scripture says.

So God recogizes and honors the priesthood authority of any properly ordained priest even if that man abuses his office by proclaiming false doctrines? Interesting.
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
So did the adherents of Martin Luther, who received the priesthood under his hand or through his line, hold claim to valid and proper priesthood authority? If so did that line of priesthood become invalidated at some point, therefore invalidating the priesthood authority of Lutherans?


Luther was only a priest and did not have the authority to ordain. Bishops can only ordain. Now if some of the bishops can trace thier lineage back to apostlolic succession(there are a small few in europe) then their priesthood would be valid. Usually, the very small group of Lutherans in europe who hold valid priesthood were ordained by eastern Orthodox Bishops somewhere along the lines. Its possible, but not likely in the usa. Most Lutherans do not care about apostolic succession and they do not see it as neccessary to hold authority or priesthood. They also do not believe in the ministeriel priesthood that is also why most of them would not care to be ordained by a Bishop. They only believe in the universal priesthood(which catholic also beleive in. See my thread on Catholic Priestood and misconceptions and inquiries from non-catholics and the 3 types in the Catholic forums.
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
So God recogizes and honors the priesthood authority of any properly ordained priest even if that man abuses his office by proclaiming false doctrines? Interesting.


Yes that is true in a sense(see my qualifications above). the Sacrament of Holy Orders leaves a indelible character on your soul. YOu are a priest forever after the order of mechizedek. Again, the priest alone does not hold ultimate teaching authority or even ordinary teaching authority in the sense of the ordinary magisterium. That is the Job of the bishops and Popes. Judas was just a much as a priest as Peter was. but Judas did not have the Keys to the kingdom of heaven and was not protected from teaching error like Peter was(Lk 22:31-32)_.
 

Polaris

Active Member
Luther was only a priest and did not have the authority to ordain. Bishops can only ordain. Now if some of the bishops can trace thier lineage back to apostlolic succession(there are a small few in europe) then their priesthood would be valid. Usually, the very small group of Lutherans in europe who hold valid priesthood were ordained by eastern Orthodox Bishops somewhere along the lines. Its possible, but not likely in the usa. Most Lutherans do not care about apostolic succession and they do not see it as neccessary to hold authority or priesthood. They also do not believe in the ministeriel priesthood that is also why most of them would not care to be ordained by a Bishop. They only believe in the universal priesthood(which catholic also beleive in. See my thread on Catholic Priestood and misconceptions and inquiries from non-catholics and the 3 types in the Catholic forums.

I'll check that out. Thanks.
 
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