Catholic 'Just War Theory'; Yet a Priest tells Me Jesus is a Pacifist and Wills us Never to Kill

[Steven Merten]

The Vatican possesses 'sovereign nation status'. The Pope can make the Vatican a Pacifist Sanctuary, by banning Swiss Guards, all guns, weapons, and physical force, and no longer allow Italian police on, ‘sovereign nation status’, Vatican property. The Pope could choose to become a Pacifist Role Model, and just accept martyrdom for himself and Vatican visitors, if he judges that this is Jesus’ Will to do so.

Suppose a terrorist is shooting at a Pope. A Swiss Guard sniper is ready to make the judgement call to kill the terrorist. What is Jesus Will for the Swiss Guard sniper to do? Does Jesus Will that the the Swiss Guard sniper make the kill shot, to save the Pope’s life? Or does Jesus Will that we never kill to protect the innocent, no matter how many innocent people are murdered?

 

[Maximus]

The Vatican possesses 'sovereign nation status'. The Pope can make the Vatican a Pacifist Sanctuary, by banning Swiss Guards, all guns, weapons, and physical force, and no longer allow Italian police on, ‘sovereign nation status’, Vatican property. The Pope could choose to become a Pacifist Role Model, and just accept martyrdom for himself and Vatican visitors, if he judges that this is Jesus’ Will to do so.

Suppose a terrorist is shooting at a Pope. A Swiss Guard sniper is ready to make the judgement call to kill the terrorist. What is Jesus Will for the Swiss Guard sniper to do? Does Jesus Will that the the Swiss Guard sniper make the kill shot, to save the Pope’s life? Or does Jesus Will that we never kill to protect the innocent, no matter how many innocent people are murdered?

Jesus, obviously, was against all killing. The Catholic church has simply been wrong on this point historically. However, they have come a long way and are outspoken against the death penalty, abortion (murder), and all forms of violence including the wanton destruction of Creation for greed and profit. God bless the Pope.

 

[Steven Merten]

Jesus, obviously, was against all killing. The Catholic church has simply been wrong on this point historically. However, they have come a long way and are outspoken against the death penalty, abortion (murder), and all forms of violence including the wonton destruction of Creation for greed and profit. God bless the Pope.

Luke 22:36
"And the man without a sword must sell his coat and buy one."
​

Hello Maximus,
So you are thinking Jesus Commanding His Apostles to sell their coats and buy swords, was about duck hunting?

 

[Maximus]

Luke 22:36
"And the man without a sword must sell his coat and buy one."
​

Hello Maximus,
So you are thinking Jesus Commanding His Apostles to sell their coats and buy swords, was about duck hunting?

I do not take that literally. There is a lot of commentary out there giving other interpretations. But besides that, you would have to dismiss all of his other teachings to accept it at face value.


A Brief Explanation of the Sword in Luke 22:36

Does Jesus Command His Followers to Take Up a Sword?

 

[Steven Merten]

I do not take that literally. There is a lot of commentary out there giving other interpretations. But besides that, you would have to dismiss all of his other teachings to accept it at face value.

Hello Maximus,
The Vatican has sovereign nation status. This means that it is the Pope who decides whether or not to have armed militia on Vatican property. Are you thinking that the Pope should ban Swiss Guards and Italian police from setting foot on Vatican property, to make the Vatican a Pacifist Sanctuary? I know that Swiss Guards killed two people back in 1982.

 

[Maximus]

Hello Maximus,
The Vatican has sovereign nation status. This means that it is the Pope who decides whether or not to have armed militia on Vatican property. Are you thinking that the Pope should ban Swiss Guards and Italian police from setting foot on Vatican, to make the Vatican a Pacifist Sanctuary? I know that Swiss Guards killed two people back in 1982.

Yes

 

[Mark Dohle]

Governments exist to protect their people, so there is war. Christians are called to love those they are with, and to learn to see 'all' as beloved children of God. We are called to never be the aggressor and if possible to not add to the cycle of war, death, rape, and mayhem.

Peace
mark

 

[Steven Merten]

Governments exist to protect their people, so there is war. Christians are called to love those they are with, and to learn to see 'all' as beloved children of God. We are called to never be the aggressor and if possible to not add to the cycle of war, death, rape, and mayhem.

Peace
mark

Hello Mark,
Do you agree with Maximus, in that the Pope should ban Swiss Guards, Italian police and all armed protectors, from the Vatican? The Vatican has 'sovereign nation status', so the UN will support the Pope, with sanctions on Italy and Switzerland, if they fail to remove Italian police and Swiss Guards from sovereign nation Vatican City State. I know Swiss Guards had two kills back in 1982, and probably more over the decades.

The Pope is 'the government' in Vatican City State.

 

[Steven Merten]

Is everyone familiar with Papal States history? After the conversion of Constantine, in the fourth century, Catholics started donating massive amounts of land to the Church. By the time of the fall of Papal States in 1870, the Catholic Church owned two thirds of Italy. The Catholic Church, with the Pope as the government of Papal States, fought many battles to protect the people and property of Papal States over the millenniums. The Church did not simply travel through the Dark Ages, bearing massive property, wealth and citizens, without war and blood shed to protect the people and property of Papal States.

Are we all thinking that it is only in the past 50 years or so, of pacifist minded Catholic leaders, that Jesus Will on killing, or not killing, to protect the innocent, has been accomplished?

States of the Church
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14257a.htm​

 

[Maximus]

Is everyone familiar with Papal States history? After the conversion of Constantine, in the fourth century, Catholics started donating massive amounts of land to the Church. By the time of the fall of Papal States in 1870, the Catholic Church owned two thirds of Italy. The Catholic Church fought many battles to protect the people and property of Papal States over the millenniums. The Church did not simply travel through the Dark Ages, bearing massive property, wealth and citizens, without war and blood shed to protect the people and property of Papal States.

Are we all thinking that it is only in the past 50 years or so, of pacifist minded Catholic leaders, that Jesus Will on killing, or not killing, to protect the innocent, has been accomplished?

States of the Church
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14257a.htm​

The 12th word in your post is key: Constantine I.

Much of what you say about the Roman Catholic Church was mirrored in the eastern Roman Empire out of Constantinople until the 15th century. God and Emperors are not a good mix.

 

[Steven Merten]

The 12th word in your post is key: Constantine I.

Much of what you say about the Roman Catholic Church was mirrored in the eastern Roman Empire out of Constantinople until the 15th century. God and Emperors are not a good mix.

Hello Maximus,
So you are saying that as hundreds of millions of good Catholics donated two thirds of Italian property and great wealth to Jesus, through His Church, that Catholic leaders should have just let marauders come in and steal it, without Catholic Popes lifting a military finger to stop them? Don't you think that Catholic Popes had an obligation to protect all this Catholic tithe money to Jesus, to make sure it went to feed the poor and oppressed, rather than thieves?

 

[Maximus]

Hello Maximus,
So you are saying that as hundreds of millions of good Catholics donated two thirds of Italian property and great wealth to Jesus, through His Church, that Catholic leaders should have just let marauders come in and steal it, without Catholic Popes lifting a military finger to stop them? Don't you think that Catholic Popes had an obligation to protect all this Catholic tithe money to Jesus, to make sure it went to feed the poor and oppressed, rather than thieves?

No. I am a pacifist - I feel that is how Jesus wants me to live. I do not agree with the Church on everything.

 

[MonkeyFire]

I know this one... hell suffers or goes to naught if your passive to it, and its sadistic to kill for heaven (pleasure). Literally like giving it a taste of it's own medicine.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Luke 22:36
"And the man without a sword must sell his coat and buy one."
​

Hello Maximus,
So you are thinking Jesus Commanding His Apostles to sell their coats and buy swords, was about duck hunting?

What about where the bible says "live by the sword die by the sword."

 

[Steven Merten]

I know that St. Pope John Paul II attributed his prayers to the Blessed Mother as to being what protected him from the assassination attempt on his life in 1981. So a Pope expelling all armed and, physical force, protectors from Vatican City, and replacing them with praying clergy for Vatican security, to make the Vatican a Pacifist Sanctuary City, has plausibility. Though I remain a doubter on pacifism.

 

[Steven Merten]

I do not see Jesus as a pacifist. I see Jesus as the Great Protector of His Church, using His ‘Keys to the Kingdom’, which is Jesus’ lips binding and loosting sins, to Rule over Israel and the world, with and through His Church, the Catholic Church, under Messianic Reign. I do, however, find it very interesting to hear what the Catholic pacifists on this thread have to say.

I remember a Vatican story from, I think, the 1970s. A tourist was in one of the Vatican Basilicas or Chapels or the like. Suddenly a man came running in with a hammer and started smashing on one of the priceless Michelangelo's statues. The tourist said that Swiss Guards came running in and pounded the vandal to the floor. Swiss Guards then drug the vandal off like a dog.

So how do the pacifists on this thread feel that praying monks, guarding priceless Michelangel art, in a Pacifist Sanctuary City, Vatican, would handle such an attack? I am thinking they would simply, slowly, walk up to the vandal, place their hand on his shoulder, and pray for his brokenness. I am thinking that praying monk, Vatican pacifist protectors, would simply pray for the vandal, as the man walks off carrying pieces of the priceless Michelangelo artwork, to trade for some lunch (or probably drugs).

How would the Catholic pacifists on this thread, react, if they were responsible for guarding Vatican treasures, using prayer alone, in a Pacifist Sanctuary City, Vatican?

 

[Steven Merten]

Thank you Veterans and all Protectors​

A special thanks to Swiss Guards and Italian police, who fight, kill and die, out of love for Jesus through the protection of the least of Jesus’ brothers.

A special thanks to American police and soldiers, who fight, kill and die, out of love for Jesus through the protection of the least of Jesus’ brothers.

 

[Glaurung]

If pacifism is a requirement of divine law then Jesus declined to make that point known to the centurion whose servant he healed.

The civil authority has the right and duty to protect its citizens from aggression. Violence is never a good thing and it ought to be deplored. But the notion that it is always illegitimate is in my opinion a view based more on sentimentality than what can be derived from tradition or scripture.

 

[Steven Merten]

If pacifism is a requirement of divine law then Jesus declined to make that point known to the centurion whose servant he healed.

The civil authority has the right and duty to protect its citizens from aggression. Violence is never a good thing and it ought to be deplored. But the notion that it is always illegitimate is in my opinion a view based more on sentimentality than what can be derived from tradition or scripture.

Hello Musing,

I saw an article today. Pope Francis was walking through the streets of Italy praying for healing for corona virus victims. The Pope had with him six or seven armed militia. Say terrorists would have popped out shooting at the Pope. A Swiss Guard throws himself in front of the Pope while unloading a barrage of automatic fire power, killing all the terrorists, and the Swiss Guard giving his own life to protect the Pope. You said, ‘Violence is never a good thing and it ought to be deplored’. Are you saying that a Swiss Guard killing the bad guys to protect the Pope would be the Swiss Guards committing hatred and evil? I see a Swiss Guard as loving Jesus, through the least of Jesus brothers, by killing terrorists to protect a Pope.

 

[Steven Merten]

I once read of a Pacifist elementary school, who had a school shooter. I said who called the police? ‘The pacifist principal did!’, they responded. The pacifist principal was upset that the police did not get there fast enough, to kill or subdue the shooter, and many students died. I asked why the pacifist principal did not pull out her gun and shoot the school shooter, to protect her students? We discussed the conflict of interest in the principal’s Pacifist religious beliefs and her actions, of calling the police, which will bring harm, probably death, upon the school shooter. Should a Pacifist refuse to call the police, to religiously ‘turn the other cheek’, to protect the life of a school shooter? Is religious Pacifism only about Pacifists seeking worldly glorification as religious Pacifists? Should religious leader Pacifists first teach young Christians, Jesus Will on when to kill, or not to kill, for the protection of the innocent, before Pacifists seek out their own personal worldly glorification as being religious Pacifists?