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Catholic Church has never Changed doctrine.

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Victor said:
You forgot about me James. See above. :)

~Victor
Sorry Victor,

I didn't forget you, I just couldn't believe you were being serious so I refrained from answering. Please, explain how you can believe that a Church that can condemn a Pope of Rome for heresy (rightly or wrongly, it's completely irrelevant though I believe they were right) can simultaneously hold the view that said Pope is Infallible, the supreme authority over the Church and that one must be in communion with him to be in the Church. If you can do that then I'll answer your question as to why I disagree but at the moment that question just strikes me as a bit of a joke.

James
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
One further thought, and to get away from Papal Supremacy and Infallibility (because I think we've done this to death and will never agree) and also to avoid the Immaculate Conception as it's already been raised here, I'd like to ask a question. Is the RC dogma of the Assumption defined such that the Theotokos was assumed before death, or is that just the belief of some RCs (I honestly don't know)? If the former, then we have a clear case of the beliefs of the RCC having been changed contrary to Holy Tradition. If the latter, then this is merely an example of the misguided and contra-Traditional beliefs of some individual RCs. If someone would be so good as to give me a definitive response on this I'll be able to see if this is another example worthy of discussion here.

James
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
IacobPersul said:
Sorry Victor,

I didn't forget you, I just couldn't believe you were being serious so I refrained from answering. Please, explain how you can believe that a Church that can condemn a Pope of Rome for heresy (rightly or wrongly, it's completely irrelevant though I believe they were right) can simultaneously hold the view that said Pope is Infallible, the supreme authority over the Church and that one must be in communion with him to be in the Church. If you can do that then I'll answer your question as to why I disagree but at the moment that question just strikes me as a bit of a joke.

James
Actually I was just going to say something along these lines. Even if Honorious was a heretic, which I firmly believe he was not (instead of telling me what OTHER people thoguht about him, how about showing me from his writings that he was a heretic?), it wouldn't really change much. The Church has ALWAYS said that the Popes are every bit as capable of misguided actions and beliefs as everyone else. They just can't TEACH error on Faith and Morals. Their personal beliefs are their own.

As for the Assumption, the Church has not official position on when she was taken body and Soul into Heaven. You can believe she was taken alive or that she had already died.
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
Here is Archbishop Hefele's conclusion on the matter from Vol. 5 of his History of the Church Councils:

With regard to the modifications made in reference to Pope Honorius, I have thought it fair to distinguish clearly every departure of the second edition from the first, which was in any way important. Even in the first edition, as well as in the Latin memorial [prepared for the Vatican Council], Causa Honorii Papoe, I laid down as my conclusion: That Honorius thought in an orthodox sense, but unhappily, especially in his first letter to the Patriarch
Sergius of Constantinople, he had expressed himself in a Monothelite
manner. This position I still hold firmly; but I have also given repeated fresh consideration to the subject, and have weighed what others have more recently written; so that I have now modified or entirely abandoned many details of my earlier statements; and, especially with regard to the first letter of Honorius, I now form a more favorable judgment than before.


It remains incontestable that Honorius himself made use of the Monothelite expression una voluntas (in Christ), and that he disapproved the shibboleth of orthodoxy, 350 du>o ejnergeiai (duoe operationes), but he did both under a misunderstanding, since, at the beginning of the great dogmatic conflict, he had not clearly enough comprehended the two terms. That, in spite of the unhappy, heretically sounding expression, he thought in an orthodox sense, as already remarked, I maintained before; but I must now add that, in several passages of both his letters, he did not endeavor to
express the orthodox thought.


When, for example, in his first letter, he ascribes to Christ; the Lex Mentis, he, in accordance with the Pauline manner of speech (Romans 7:23), which he followed, meant nothing else than the incorrupt human will of Christ, so that eo ispo he maintained two wills in Christ — this human will and also the divine.

If, nevertheless, Honorius would allow only unam voluntatem in Christ, he understood by this the moral unity of the incorrupt human will with the divine will in Christ. No less do we find, even in the first letter of Honorius, indications that he himself assumed two energies or operationes in Christ (see below, p. 40); but he expresses himself much better on the subject in his second letter, when he writes: “The divine nature in Christ works that which is divine, and the human nature accomplishes that which is of the
flesh,” i.e., there are two energies or operationes to be distinguished in Christ. As, however, Honorius himself made use of the Monothelite expression una voluntas, and disapproved of the orthodox duo ejnergeiai, he seemed to support Monothelitism, and thereby actually helped to promote the heresy.


As in the first edition, so also now I hold firmly that neither the letters of Honorius nor the Acts of the sixth Oecumenical Council, which condemned him, have been falsified; but also, notwithstanding the objections of the Roman Professor Pennacchi (see sec. 324), for whom personally I have a great respect, I still maintain the Oecumenical character of those sessions which pronounced anathema on Honorius; and I come to the conclusion, that the Council kept to the mere words of the letters of Honorius which they had before them, to the fact that he himself made use of the heretical term and disapproved of the orthodox phrase, and on this ground pronounced his sentence. In earlier times, tribunals generally troubled themselves much more with the mere facts than with psychological considerations. Moreover, it did not escape the sixth Oecumenical Council, that some passages in the letters of Honorius were in
contradiction to his apparent Monothelitism (see sec. 324). With greater accuracy than the Council, Pope Leo II. pointed out the fault of Honorius, showing that, instead of checking the heresy at its very beginning by a clear statement of the orthodox doctrine, he helped to promote it by negligentia (cf. sec. 324


Take that as you will. It puts it better than I ever could.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Uncertaindrummer said:
...(instead of telling me what OTHER people thoguht about him, how about showing me from his writings that he was a heretic?), ...
I thought I showed you what the authoirity of the church said. The "history" shows that the council did look at his writings. But if you could provide the proper link to his writings, I'd gladly read them
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
James,
Please, explain how you can believe that a Church that can condemn a Pope of Rome for heresy (rightly or wrongly, it's completely irrelevant though I believe they were right) can simultaneously hold the view that said Pope is Infallible,
A Pope is not EVER Infallible.....specific teachings (on faith and morals) can said to be infallible... but these specific instances have some strict guidelines:
The Pope is empowered with infallibility ONLY when he is in the act of defining a doctrine of faith or morals, speaking as head of the Church, with the clear intention of binding the whole Church.

Pope Honorius agreed with Sergius (Patriarch of Constantanople at the time) that the expression "one will" could be used.... Sergius carried this one step further: if one will, then one nature... and bang, right back to the heresy of Monophysitism.

Pope Honorius was not defining a dogma of the faith... and thus was not speaking infallibly.

Pope Honorius was not speaking as head of the Church ... and thus was not speaking infallibly.

Pope Honorius was not speaking with a clear intention to bind the entire Church.... and thus was not speaking infallibly.

Thank God that ... YET AGAIN... the Roman position was able to correct YET ANOTHER heresy of Constantanople... and authentic Christology was preserved.

Hope this helps you understand.

Nice job Victor and UD!
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
IacobPersul said:
Sorry Victor,

I didn't forget you, I just couldn't believe you were being serious so I refrained from answering.
You must know me very well :confused: .

Scott did a wonderful job of answering. Hope it clarifies things.


~Victor
 

ted1234

Member
Hey all,

Perhaps someone can tell me how a pope, by virtue of his office alone, and not necessarily required to have the Church's sanction, can speak infallibly on faith and morals to the Church, when he can have personal heresy in faith and morals? Does this not seem absolutely DANGEROUS to anyone else?

Ted
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
ted1234 said:
Perhaps someone can tell me how a pope, by virtue of his office alone,
The power of the Papacy does not come from the "office alone".
and not necessarily required to have the Church's sanction,
Truth by popular vote? What if the Church "sanctions" ... say, for instance, a change to the Creed.... does that make it ok?
can speak infallibly on faith and morals to the Church, when he can have personal heresy in faith and morals? Does this not seem absolutely DANGEROUS to anyone else?
No more dangerous than a group of possibly sinful men.:)
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
Pah said:
I thought I showed you what the authoirity of the church said. The "history" shows that the council did look at his writings. But if you could provide the proper link to his writings, I'd gladly read them
Wasn't talking to you. Actually I entirely missed your post the first time around... Amazingly, you have offered up more evidence than James, and you are an atheist...
 

Pah

Uber all member
Uncertaindrummer said:
Wasn't talking to you. Actually I entirely missed your post the first time around... Amazingly, you have offered up more evidence than James, and you are an atheist...
What has being an Atheist have to do with evidence? You shouldn't be looking at the belief system of the commentator but at comment. I'll assume that now that you seen it, you'll answer it.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Scott1 said:
James,
A Pope is not EVER Infallible.....specific teachings (on faith and morals) can said to be infallible... but these specific instances have some strict guidelines:
The Pope is empowered with infallibility ONLY when he is in the act of defining a doctrine of faith or morals, speaking as head of the Church, with the clear intention of binding the whole Church.

Pope Honorius agreed with Sergius (Patriarch of Constantanople at the time) that the expression "one will" could be used.... Sergius carried this one step further: if one will, then one nature... and bang, right back to the heresy of Monophysitism.

Pope Honorius was not defining a dogma of the faith... and thus was not speaking infallibly.

Pope Honorius was not speaking as head of the Church ... and thus was not speaking infallibly.

Pope Honorius was not speaking with a clear intention to bind the entire Church.... and thus was not speaking infallibly.
I'm perfectly well aware that Sergius was a heretic, but as we don't believe that any bishop is ever endowed with infallibility, but only the Church as a whole, this causes me no problems whatsoever. I'd appreciate it if you stuck to explaining RC doctrine rather than trying to lecture me on history as you should be aware by now that I am not ignorant on the subject.

As to what you have said about your beliefs, I still have two problems. The first is that the RCC clearly believes that to be in the Church you must be in communion with Rome. It was always normal practice in the Church, however, to sever communion with heretics. If, then, a Pope of Rome, such as Honorius was condemned as a heretic and everyone else ceased to be in communion with Rome over the issue, where would the Church be? Would She cease to exist? I'm afraid that that seems to be the logical upshot.

Secondly, what if a Pope condemned of heresy did teach in precisely the ways you say Honorius did not. Would those teachings still be infallible? If not, then surely this shows that it is the concensus of the whole Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that is infallible and not the Pope as it is this concensus that would be responsible for defining him as a heretic. And please don't say that he couldn't teach heresy as that will explain nothing, just accept that he would be able to for the sakes of argument. I'm pretty sure Honorius could have taught monophysitism in Rome had he so wished.

Thank God that ... YET AGAIN... the Roman position was able to correct YET ANOTHER heresy of Constantanople... and authentic Christology was preserved.
Thank God that we are able to accept that there have been unworthy Patriarchs in all Sees in the past and that this does not affect our doctrine at all. It is rather unbecoming of you to crow over the superiority of Rome when we have corrected the heresies that afflicted us but you have still yet to renounce the filioque, despite it's condemnation by pre-Schism Popes and what you agreed with us was the 8th Ecumenical Council for some 200 years. I also fail to see how the position of Rome corrected anything with regards to monophysitism. Did Honorius anathematise himself? No. That was done by the 3rd Council of Constantinople with the later agreement of Pope Leo II. I'm amazed and disappointed to see you come up with such triumphalistic claptrap.

Hope this helps you understand.
Help me understand your doctrine? No. Help me understand that you are much closer to the extreme Montanist position on the significance of the Papacy and Rome than I had previously believed? Yes. If even the moderate and generally conciliatory RCs such as yourself are willing to make such statements then I can honestly say that all the current hopes for reunion are no more than pie in the sky. It sounds like we are as far apart now as we were when the Church rejected the false union of Florence.

James
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
IacobPersul said:
As to what you have said about your beliefs, I still have two problems. The first is that the RCC clearly believes that to be in the Church you must be in communion with Rome. It was always normal practice in the Church, however, to sever communion with heretics. If, then, a Pope of Rome, such as Honorius was condemned as a heretic and everyone else ceased to be in communion with Rome over the issue, where would the Church be? Would She cease to exist? I'm afraid that that seems to be the logical upshot.


I think sometimes it is forgotten that we also believe in collegiality.

IacobPersul said:
Secondly, what if a Pope condemned of heresy did teach in precisely the ways you say Honorius did not.


It would be like asking what if the Bishops in union get it wrong. That is what Scott meant by “No more dangerous than a group of possibly sinful men.”

IacobPersul said:
Would those teachings still be infallible?


Would bishops in union speaking in the proper language be infallible if they were wrong? I hope you can see how we see it.

IacobPersul said:
If not, then surely this shows that it is the concensus of the whole Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that is infallible and not the Pope as it is this concensus that would be responsible for defining him as a heretic. And please don't say that he couldn't teach heresy as that will explain nothing, just accept that he would be able to for the sakes of argument. I'm pretty sure Honorius could have taught monophysitism in Rome had he so wished.


We're all for councils James. It is not a zero-sum game: pope vs. councils. The Catholic position is that they work together, in conjunction -- not papal power and no conciliar input, or councils with no pope (Orthodoxy and Anglicanism), or neither councils nor popes (Protestantism). I contend that our system is the most biblical, incorporating the abundant Petrine data indicating his primacy, and conciliar indications, such as the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). No one else has consistently incorporated both biblical elements.

IacobPersul said:
Thank God that we are able to accept that there have been unworthy Patriarchs in all Sees in the past and that this does not affect our doctrine at all. It is rather unbecoming of you to crow over the superiority of Rome when we have corrected the heresies that afflicted us but you have still yet to renounce the filioque, despite it's condemnation by pre-Schism Popes and what you agreed with us was the 8th Ecumenical Council for some 200 years.


Didn’t most all heresies come from the East at that time?

IacobPersul said:
I also fail to see how the position of Rome corrected anything with regards to monophysitism. Did Honorius anathematise himself? No. That was done by the 3rd Council of Constantinople with the later agreement of Pope Leo II. I'm amazed and disappointed to see you come up with such triumphalistic claptrap.


Do share, what corrected it? Your frustration is beginning to show and will resolve nothing.

IacobPersul said:
Help me understand your doctrine? No. Help me understand that you are much closer to the extreme Montanist position on the significance of the Papacy and Rome than I had previously believed? Yes. If even the moderate and generally conciliatory RCs such as yourself are willing to make such statements then I can honestly say that all the current hopes for reunion are no more than pie in the sky. It sounds like we are as far apart now as we were when the Church rejected the false union of Florence.

James


Peace be with you James.

~Victor
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
IacobPersul said:
I'd appreciate it if you stuck to explaining RC doctrine rather than trying to lecture me on history as you should be aware by now that I am not ignorant on the subject.
Ummm...ok.... the "lecture" was intended as a general overview of the situation, not only for your benefit, but for readers who might not know the history... I do also think it is important to establish my understanding of the historical events so as to give you the opportunity to provide another version should it be needed.... but if you want to take it as a personal attack on your intelligence, feel free..... but I would also enjoy it if you practice what you preach and stuck to explaining EO beliefs.
If, then, a Pope of Rome, such as Honorius was condemned as a heretic and everyone else ceased to be in communion with Rome over the issue, where would the Church be? Would She cease to exist? I'm afraid that that seems to be the logical upshot.
Ahhhh.... a "what if" question... super. Communion with the Church is more than communion with the Bishop of Rome... but yes, if a sitting Pope were to be proclaimed a heretic RC ecclesiology would crumble.... but I don't doubt the power of the Holy Spirit to protect against that.:)
And please don't say that he couldn't teach heresy as that will explain nothing, just accept that he would be able to for the sakes of argument. I'm pretty sure Honorius could have taught monophysitism in Rome had he so wished.
Like I said in my previous answer... Honorius could have taught that in Rome... every other Patriarch at the time was also a heretic..... and if he did so in an attempt to speak ex cathedra the gates of hell would prevail over the Church and the RCC would cease to exisist, in my opinion.
I'm amazed and disappointed to see you come up with such triumphalistic claptrap.
I'm glad you agree... it was done for effect... kinda annoying, eh? There is a lesson in that.:D
It sounds like we are as far apart now as we were when the Church rejected the false union of Florence.
With you> yes... with the majority of EO members I have spoken with> no. You have made it quite clear that you don't desire the Church to be one... I have said on several occasions that I view the EO as part of the "two lungs" of the Church... and you have rejected that at every turn... I love you and I love the EO... and I pray that we someday may all be one.

Peace in Christ,
Scott
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
Pah said:
What has being an Atheist have to do with evidence? You shouldn't be looking at the belief system of the commentator but at comment. I'll assume that now that you seen it, you'll answer it.
It has nothing to do with the comment. It has to do with the fact that it is ironic that you have shown mroe itnerest in providing evidence than an Orthodox Catholic. Anyway, I have for some reason had trouble getting on RF lately and have not been able to respond to ANYTHING, and can't right now. I will try later but my internet is really screwy right now...
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Where on earth is Eve every described as a prefigurement of Mary. Where does the Bible teach [that Mary never sinned]? When did Jesus teach it? What is the earliest record we have of it being taught?
Would you mind giving me some examples (of the doctrine of the Trinity being taught among the early Christians), along with dates, please.


I don't know what you mean by the phrase "consciousness of the Church." Would you explain?




Patiently waiting. (Am I being ignored or was I just forgotten?)
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
Katzpur said:
Patiently waiting. (Am I being ignored or was I just forgotten?)
Sorry I haven't been able to get on. Anyway, read Genesis 3: 15, but also, do you even believe in types at all? Because surely if you don't believe Jesus is the new Adam then it would make sense you don't believe Mary is the new Eve. But if you do, then why do you say Jesus is the new Adam?
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
Pah said:
I'll assume that now that you seen it, you'll answer it.
I believe I did with my other post.

I would also like to reiterate though, that I am not advocating a Pope CAN'T be a heretic, as he can. But it is merely a strong argument in favor of the Papacy if none of them ever vecame heretics.

P.S. James does the Orthodox Church consider the Roman Catholic Church in schism or Heretical? I know that you are considered to be in schism, was not sure about the other way around.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Uncertaindrummer said:
Sorry I haven't been able to get on. Anyway, read Genesis 3: 15, but also, do you even believe in types at all? Because surely if you don't believe Jesus is the new Adam then it would make sense you don't believe Mary is the new Eve. But if you do, then why do you say Jesus is the new Adam?
How would that make sense? Was Eve Adam's mother, just as Mary is Jesus's?
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Uncertaindrummer said:
P.S. James does the Orthodox Church consider the Roman Catholic Church in schism or Heretical? I know that you are considered to be in schism, was not sure about the other way around.
Good question UD... I'm curious how James will answer in light of:
...the Joint Commission has been able to declare that our Churches recognize one another as Sister Churches, responsible together for safeguarding the one Church of God, in fidelity to the divine plan, and in an altogether special way with regard to unity.
From the COMMON DECLARATION SIGNED IN THE VATICAN BY POPE JOHN PAUL II AND PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW I.
 
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