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Catholic and Protestant faith....

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Scott1, Dec 8, 2004.

  1. kassi

    kassi Member

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    What I know is that Christ said: to call no one on earth Father.

    Pope means Father.

    Does God speak only to the pope?

    At the time of the apostles did they all consult with Peter before they peformed their tasked?


    In the old testament specific Priestly duties were described in detail. Why dont we have this same detail for the new covenent?
    Yes I see the need for bishops, but Christ is now the only High priest.
    There we twelve Apostles, not eleven with one above the others.
     
  2. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hehe.... hiya kassi.... this objection is almost funny.... like Jesus did not want me to call my dad "father" :biglaugh: .... how about you take a look at this for a more detailed answer why you are quite wrong in your interpretation of this verse.
    Nope.
    The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."
    Well.... now you're bringing up history, and I would guess that in your mind history outside of the pages of the Bible does not exsist. The Apostles chose men to follow them.... tought them how to spread the Gospel and how to run the Church..... and these men recognized the Primacy of Peter:


    "The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

    "Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).
    What's your point? If you did a search of history you would understand more that the bulk of the Book of Acts is a defense of Paul's legitimacy .... using a comparison to Peter.
    We do..... in scripture:
    Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called "evangelists" in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

    Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

    Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).


    .... and in the early Church.

    These same leaders are the men that determined that Canon of Scripture that you read today....... or did you think your Bible just fell out of the sky?;)
    Amen.... on that, we agree.

    Scott
     
  3. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Oh.... you must have added this later......

    Not one above the others, eh? Scripture seems contrary to your opinion:
    Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

    Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.

    Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.

    Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

    Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

    Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

    Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

    Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

    Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.

    Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.

    Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

    Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

    Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.

    Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

    Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

    Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.

    Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."

    Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.

    Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.

    Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

    Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.

    Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.

    Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

    Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.

    Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.

    John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the fi.

    Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.

    John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.

    John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.

    John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.

    John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church.

    John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.

    John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.

    John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.

    Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.

    Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.

    Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.

    Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.

    Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.

    Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.

    Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.

    Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.

    Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.

    Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.

    Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.

    Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).

    Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.

    Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.

    Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."

    Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.

    1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.

    1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”

    Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.

    1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.

    2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.

    2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.


    Now where would Catholics get the idea that Peter was special? ;)
     
  4. kassi

    kassi Member

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    That was fast scott, You will have to give me time to reply. By the way if Peter was the Pope then he was the only Pope according to those scriptures that ever existed.
     
  5. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hehe.... take your time my friend.
    I don't understand this.... please elaborate. The office given to Peter works the same as any other Bishop. You do know that, right.... the Pope is "just" a Bishop? The Bishop of Rome. If the office of Bishop continues, then it's only logical that the Church be led by the Bishop of Rome as it was from the begining.

    This quote from Vatican II sums up my feelings about these kinds of questions:
    Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided. Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.
    UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

    May we all be one.
    Scott
     
  6. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    "Vigil You are right chirstianity is not the true soul religion its the Catholic Church that is the true religion"

    I do not believe this. But I respect your opinion, and I find no use in arguing against it. If you follow the religion of goodness, no matter what title you give it, I'm certainly ok with it.
     
  7. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Hehe, sorry SOGFPP, but I saw this and I couldn't let it go :D .

    By calling the pope, "THE" Bishop, you make him more than just a bishop. And if he is just an other bishop, how then is his position any more special than the that of the other bishops? How many other bishops are referred to as "Holy Father"?

    And were do the scriptures say that the position of bishop is to be continued, as in a line of succession? I will agree that every church needs to have bishops/overseers/elders/pastors (whatever you want to call them) as well as deacons, but I don't see any indication that these positions need to be passed on directly from one person to the next in a successive line.

    Amen.
     
  8. kassi

    kassi Member

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  9. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I find it sad that so much time needs to be spent spelling out the differences, and arguing the meaning of a word here and there. All faiths have had to accept changes at various times in civilizations, to 'bend with public opinions and needs'. What I find is even sadder is when Religious zest is employed as an excuse to go to war. Of course, each 'side' always thinks it is the one in the right, and that, by dying, they will go to heaven for doing their Deity's will. I respect everyone's religion as long as it does not harm others. I believe, too, that Religious faiths are the backbone of ethnic 'problems'; would'nt it be great if we could all just say,"O.K, I don't necessarily believe in what you believe in, but does it matter?"
    Perhaps that is why I originally listed my relion as 'I wish I knew', and then took strength from another RF member who quoted his as being 'his own'.
    For my part, religions are so wrapped up in 'tunnel visioned' dogmas; that is why I cannot put my name down for one in particular.
    Live and let live.:)
     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    By the way, I meant to include a 'please don't be offended' at the end of my last post. I admire those who throw themselves wholeheartedly into one faith; I would not want anyone's feeling hurt.:)
     
  11. kassi

    kassi Member

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    Amen to that !
     
  12. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Definitely. But the problem is that each side is trying to get the other to join theirs. Besides, it's fun to discuss things like this :).
     
  13. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    But Christianity does that from the beginning. Do you consider Buddhism on par with Christianity? If you don't, then you're not conforming to Mich's statement. Furthermore, if you don't consider other religions on par, then the complaint you have isn't that Catholicism is exclusive, but that it's excluding you.

    Another way of putting it, just because you break away and change some doctrines doesn't mean that other people have to change it. Christianity has always believed in one Church. There is no reason for Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism to change this claim after the Reformation.
     
  14. precept

    precept Member

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    If Christianity is defined by one who believes that Jresus died to save humanity from sin then all who so believe must indeed be considered Christian, no matter the denomination.
    The statement of Jesus in Matthew 7:21 " Not everyone that saith unto me Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of heaven" does make it clear, however, that not all 'Christians" are Christian.

    The disciples were first called "Christians" in Antioch by those of Judaism who wanted to identify the followers of Jesus separate and apart from the Jews of Judaism who were not. This was not a term of endearment but one that brought ridicule to any identified as a follower of Jesus.

    These Christian Jews were happy to be so identified and wore the name of vilification proudly. Their center for the desimination of Christian teahings was Jerusalem; and the teachers of Christianitry,Jews; were Jews who now believed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah as prophesied by the prophets of Israel for thousands of years. It was to these Jews that so believed that Jesus entrusted His Gospel of Salvation. And this Gospel they dutifully and faithfully preached to all who would accept-Jews and Gentiles alike. Those who accepted the Gospel as taught by them ; leaving the Gospel unchanged, are the Christians; and those who call themselves Christians are those who have taken the Gospel of Christ and tampered with it.

    One must first check to see if the denomination to which he belongs is "Christian" or just is "called Christian".

    The Christian denomination of Christian Jews was chased out of Jerusalem by the emperor Adrian who hated all Jews. and expelled all Jews, Christian and non-Christian alike from Jerusalem in AD 130 .

    Adrian then repopulated the entire country of Judea with Gentiles. It was to these "new converts to Christianity that Adrian gave permission to run the church of Christianity.. And it was these new Gentile converts who in order to accomodate the Emperor Adrian forever changed the face of Christianity, making it one that the pagan emperor could accept.

    This Christianity filled with errors is the one that Martin Luther tried to reform in the middle ages. The Christianity that Martin Luther espoused was not much different from the Christianioty he tried to influence re the doctrine of justification by faith...because had he successfully so influenced the Roman Catholic church, he would have still continued to follow the other errors as taught by the Catholic church.

    Luther's reformation was as iinvolved in misrepresenting Christ's Christianity as his Roman Catholic counterparts. They plotted against each other fighting wars against each other;wontonly killing each other and perpetrating atrocities against each other; and all in the name of "the Christianity" they presumed to represent the teachings of Christ.

    Unity therefore between the false; is desireable; if only because they will solidly identify themselves as separate and apart from the true.

    To find the true! Heed the words of Jesus...."Search the scriptures; for in them ye think you have eternal; life; and they are they that testify of me". John 5:39. "You shall seek me and you shall find me; if you search for me sincerely[with all your heart]. Jeremiah 29:13


    precept
     
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  15. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    No*s,
    I was speaking in general terms. It wasn't my intention to be specific about any particular religion or group of people. I was merely attemting to imply that in a debate (religious ro not) either side is trying to convince the other that they are wrong. Maybe this is not ALWAYS the case, but generally that is how it goes. I think you read a little too deeply into my post.
     
  16. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Ah.

    I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, then Linus :(.
     
  17. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    No worries :) . You still brought up some good points. There should still be ONE church because that is what God wanted and still wants today. A united body with no separate dogmas or doctrines. The issue is not, "is [insert group here] right or wrong?", but rather "what is the right and wrong thing to do?"
     
  18. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Thanks :).

    I don't actually see the two issues as separate. If two groups agree on their theology, then quite likely they will agree on praxy, and they could interoperate. I, thus, cannot see the two issues being separate. Ethics will follow belief, and groups believing the same normally work together.

    That said, the issues today are actually a lot like they were in the first few centuries. There were lots of groups that broke away, each with a different spin on doctrine, ecclessiology, morals, etc. As a result many, many groups were competing for information. The Church gradually assumed dominance (even before Constantine), because it was historical. When it came down to it, the others broke away at a certain point, they were started by men at some point, and so on.

    This problem persists with the situation today. Lutherans, with their peculiar views, go back to Martin Luther. The Baptists to Smyth and Helwys, etc. In fact, all these groups are dependent on Orthodox/Catholic authority (I'm Orthodox not Roman Catholic) simply for the Bible.

    So, in many ways, the answers given in the first century and in Scripture still apply :). We often assume that Paul, James, or the like weren't dealing with denominations like today (and sometimes they weren't), but in all reality, the situation was just really similar.
     
  19. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    But what if neither group is correct in its interpretation/ thinking/ doctrine/ dogma? Then would you say that the issues become separate? If one or both of the groups groups is wrong in its interpretation of the Bible, then I would say the question does not become, "who is right?" (being that neither is actually right) but rather, "what is right?"
     
  20. Doc

    Doc Space Chief

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    The beliefs in God between the two are quite similar. A lot of the dispute was on ceremonial disputes. Luther felt priests should be married and wear simple clothes. He felt that people could confess to God alone and not through a priest. Things like that. Not so much on God him/her self.
     
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