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Carl Sagan Narrates the Course of Evolution
- Thread starter Terese
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No, very few scientists support 'Intelligent Design (ID),' because it cannot be falsified by scientific methods. Check out the 'Dover Trial' concerning the proposal to teach ID in schools. The court rejected ID because of the failure of the ID movement, Discovery Institute, to provide the science behind their claim.
Kitzmiller v. Dover: Intelligent Design on Trial | NCSE
The 'Nice Theory' as you call it is falsifiable by scientific methods and is supported 99% of all scientists in the related fields of Biology, Geology, Physics and Chemistry support the science of evolution without reservation.
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Ok that makes sense and if I've understood the issue; Scientific theories have to be based on models that can be tested and falsified if necessary within the Scientific Community.
This basically means in a Court of Law Intelligent Design would be disallowed on a 'Technicality'.
Scientists might well stay quiet on the issue for going against protocol, risk funding issues, but I can assure you, there are plenty who hold GOD Almighty is responsible for ALL creation, both on this Planet and throughout the Cosmos.
Even Richard Dawkins said..
Look at the miracle of DNA, a four alphabet combination (A,T,C,G) , stretching to some 262,000 A4 size pages, if printed out, amounting to about 3.7 billion letters is the “WORD” that created the human being. Which no man can write. It has similar framework for all other biological life on this planet, designed before our universe came into existence. And that does not include the “consciousness”, which is our life and soul, created as a spirit that cannot be seen or observed. And you think, it was a random accident? Non believers, does your brain function?
Who wrote it? Who put the letters into your genetic code? DNA has been classified as a code or information which by nature must be sourced from an Intelligent Mind and cannot be a random letters arranging itself by itself. Genome sequencing can spell out all 3.7 billion letters in a person's genetic code. which when printed out will reach 262,000 A4 size pages.
The human genome, the genetic code in each human cell, contains 23 DNA molecules each containing from 500 thousand to 2.5 million nucleotide pairs. DNA molecules of this size are 1.7 to 8.5 cm long when uncoiled, or about 5 cm on average. There are about 37 trillion cells in the human body and if you’d uncoil all of the DNA encased in each cell and put them end to end, then these would sum to a total length of 2×10(14) meters or enough for 17 Pluto round-trips 1.2×10(13) meters / Pluto round-trip. (To the power of)
Unbelievable Facts - # 14 - DNA. - Wattpad
This is a most advanced, complex biological technology beyond human comprehension.
Blocked in US so I can't see it but I trust it is good!
Satan created everything and left signs of his perfect darkness all over existence.
Oh, also your Dawkins quote in your other post is horribly out of context and quote mined. He's addressed this in many places but basically he was saying, yes it seems like that, but then goes on to explain how it's not so. The only reason he says it that way is because the movie makers TRICKED and DECEIVED him into talking about it that way. They didn't include all of what he said there and cut out the very long discussions before and after!
Who would know it, but Intellegent Designers lying!
Satan created everything and left signs of his perfect darkness all over existence.
Oh, also your Dawkins quote in your other post is horribly out of context and quote mined. He's addressed this in many places but basically he was saying, yes it seems like that, but then goes on to explain how it's not so. The only reason he says it that way is because the movie makers TRICKED and DECEIVED him into talking about it that way. They didn't include all of what he said there and cut out the very long discussions before and after!
Who would know it, but Intellegent Designers lying!
Not a technicality at all. It was determined that ID could not be supported by science, therefore it could not be taught in the schools as science.
Believing in God as the Creator is not the same as the ID argument. I believe in God, and frankly Frank consider the ID movement trash science.
Citing Dawkins terribly out of context does not support your case, and he matter of fact rejects the ID argument,
Who wrote it? Who put the letters into your genetic code? DNA has been classified as a code or information which by nature must be sourced from an Intelligent Mind and cannot be a random letters arranging itself by itself. Genome sequencing can spell out all 3.7 billion letters in a person's genetic code. which when printed out will reach 262,000 A4 size pages.
The human genome, the genetic code in each human cell, contains 23 DNA molecules each containing from 500 thousand to 2.5 million nucleotide pairs. DNA molecules of this size are 1.7 to 8.5 cm long when uncoiled, or about 5 cm on average. There are about 37 trillion cells in the human body and if you’d uncoil all of the DNA encased in each cell and put them end to end, then these would sum to a total length of 2×10(14) meters or enough for 17 Pluto round-trips 1.2×10(13) meters / Pluto round-trip. (To the power of)
Unbelievable Facts - # 14 - DNA. - Wattpad
This is a most advanced, complex biological technology beyond human comprehension.
The Darwin citation is bad, because it to is out of context. Sure, Darwin had doubts, but he also predicted that the unanswered questions would be worked out in the future by scientists, and indeed science has answered Darwin's doubts, and questions.
Severe problem of a phony 'argument from ignorance' to justify ID, This line of reasoning is why the Dover trial ruled against ID.
There is a common flaw in your citation concerning the use of 'random.' In the science of evolution randomness is not a causal factor in the science of evolution, and actually all events in the nature of our physical existence. Natural Laws are primary cause of every event, and the variation in the outcome of events is described by fractal math called Chaos Theory.
Again . . .
The 'Nice Theory' as you call it is falsifiable by scientific methods and is supported 99% of all scientists in the related fields of Biology, Geology, Physics and Chemistry support the science of evolution without reservation.
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I wasn't there during the interview, so can't comment, however:
Let me understand this correctly, He said it, but the Devil made him say it in those words
So do you believe your GOD created everything on this Planet?
I wasn't there during the interview, so can't comment, however:
Let me understand this correctly, He said it, but the Devil made him say it in those words
You can read the whole interview and the books he wrote to put it in context.
The quote is out of context, and incomplete as to what Dawkins believes. The quote itself in no way indicates Dawkins supports ID. Dawkins in fact is an outspoken atheist and humanist.
Yes as a Baha'i I believe God Created our physical existence, and I am Geologist, and know enough science to understand the science of evolution. I also believe the ID argument is trash science.
Methodological Naturalism is the foundation of science and neutral to the question of God and there is no objective verifiable evidence to support the existence of God. This is important, because religions try to misuse science to justify their own beliefs. The Baha'i Faith teaches the harmony of science and religion, and the independence of science to investigate and explore our physical existence.
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I wasn't there during the interview, so can't comment, however:
Let me understand this correctly, He said it, but the Devil made him say it in those words
I never claimed Satan or "the devil" made anyone say anything and I don't think that anything but Dawkins himself made him say what he said.
I believe Satan (not the same thing as the devil) created everything, or rather was the casual force of creation. Basically, in my belief, Satan is the opposing force that opposed nonduality to create duality and thus the Universe. I've been trying to work out for years if this nondual essence is opposition itself, or if somehow Satan emerged from it possibly as an inevitability. In my current view I'd just liken it to how Shakti emerges from Shiva as his expression, with Shiva being the nondual and Shakti the expressed material universe that is dualistic.
His darkness is everywhere.
I don't for a minute think he supports ID, the quote shows certain things about the Fossil records couldn't be explained adequately when he wrote that book.
Perhaps you could explain how your belief that God created us sits with the theory, everything came into being over a process of time and 'chaos theory' as you mentioned earlier?
If read the whole interview in context you would realize this is not Dawkins view.
Your arguing the fallacy of the 'argument from ignorance' to justify your view. There is not an honest scientist today that will not acknowledge that there are difficult and unanswered questions, but they also believe that science is capable answering the questions in the future.
No problem, God creates in the physical processes observed by science, over time and chaos theory only explains the variability of the events that occur over time. Science is descriptive of what takes place in the history of our universe, solar system, earth and life, and cannot determine the underlying cause, whether Natural nor Divine.
Methodological Naturalism is the foundation of science and neutral to the question of God and there is no objective verifiable evidence to support the existence of God. This is important, because religions try to misuse science to justify their own beliefs. The Baha'i Faith teaches the harmony of science and religion, and the independence of science to investigate and explore our physical existence.
Some scientists, like Dawkins, and many laymen are atheists and agnostics believe in Philosophical Naturalism, but this is a philosophical choice and not based on the objective verifiable evidence of science.
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I have no issue with this.
So bearing in mind, you said, Science doesn't know the underlying cause; I'm misusing Science, when I as a Muslim, marvel at DNA and it's mind boggling complexity, I'm wrong to point to God?
yes, I would agree.
The problem is promoting Intelligent Design (ID), and not just marveling at God's Creation. You have been presenting an argument of Intelligent Design.
There are more problems with ID than just believing God Created our physical existence. many if not most ID proponents question science, misuse science, and even believe in literal Biblical creationism, or only conditionally accept certain parts of science.
The main supporter of the Discovery Institute, the main promoter of ID, are fundamentalist Christian churches that believe in a literal Genesis, like the Seventh Day Adventists, and fundamentalist Baptist churches.
Ok now I understand what you mean, all Abrahamic religions get tarred with the same brush. Thank you for clearing that up.
Your 'rude hand wave' does not qualify as a coherent response.
No, because not all believers in the Abrahamic religions promote 'Intelligent Design.' The foundation belief is 'God Created the Heavens and our physical existence, and do not object to the science. Many believe in the harmony of science and religion, and Theistic Evolution, or Theistic Naturalism, In fact the Baha'i Faith is an Abrahamic religion.
In fact most Jews endorse the science of evolution and the scientific view of our universe.
I wasn't being rude at all. You explained the Genesis account is what causes people to reject science around evolution, especially amongst Christians. When I refer to Abrahamic faiths, I'm looking at the 3 main ones, Judaism, Christianity and Islam as all wrongly being tarred by the same brush.
Islam doesn't hold to the Genesis account and would using your definitions be classed as theistic naturalism.
Here's a very brief answer from a Scholar on the question of Evolution:
Yes you were, and you made incorrect generalizations concerning what I posted
It is true, especially among many if not most Christians. by the evidence of the polls and the doctrine beliefs of churches like Seventh Day Adventists, many fundamentalist Baptist churches, and Jehovah Witnesses, Most of the Christian church Fathers endorsed a literal Genesis with Creation taking place in seven days. Old Earth Creationists will allow for an ancient history, but insist on a world flood.
I realize you object but the Baha'i Faith is an Abrahamic religion also.
As per your video, the speaker stated that even his view is not universally believed in Islam, and the literal Genesis is believed by some Muslims, and the polls in Islamic countries support this.
I have heard this view of evolution before and read in detail different views in islam. I contend it remains a conditional acceptance of the science of evolution, based on Genesis and the Qur'an. I believe the special Creation of the first humans was spiritual within an evolved physical human.
Do you believe in a literal Biblical Noah world flood?
His is the orthodox view. There will always be people who think Evolution means we come from Apes.
If you can reference what resources you've been reading, I'll go take a look.
Not sure I understand.
Qur'an doesn't mention a World flood, but yes those who denied Noah pbuh were drowned:
We sent Nuh to his people and he remained among them for fifty short of a thousand years; yet the Flood engulfed them while they were wrongdoers. Qur'an, 29:14
We sent Nuh to his people: "I am a clear warner to you. Worship none but Allah. I fear for you the punishment of a painful day." Qur'an, 11:25-26
But they denied him so We rescued him and those with him in the Ark. And We drowned the people who denied Our Signs. They were a blind people. Qur'an, 7:64
So We rescued him and those with him by mercy from Us, and We cut off the last remnant of those who denied Our Signs and were not believers. Qur'an, 7:72
So We opened the gates of heaven with torrential water and made the earth burst forth with gushing springs. And the waters met together in a way which was decreed. We bore him on a planked and well-caulked ship. Qur'an, 54:11-13
We revealed to him: "Build the Ship under Our supervision and as We reveal. When Our command comes and water bubbles up from the earth, load into it a pair of every species, and your family-except for those among them against whom the word has already gone ahead. And do not address Me concerning those who do wrong. They shall be drowned." Qur'an, 23:27
It was said, "Earth, swallow up your water!" and, "Heaven, hold back your rain!" And the water subsided and the affair was concluded and the Ark came to land on al-Judi. And it was said, "Away with the people of the wrongdoers!" Qur'an, 11:44
As we can conclude from the verses, the flood was local because it talks about his people and the boat was built to take refuge of every species from that location.
Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an
I belief the physical form of humans evolved, Creation of Adam and Eve was the spiritual creation of the human soul (spiritual reality), and rational or intellectual reality.
"Man is endowed with an outer or physical reality. It belongs to the material realm, the animal kingdom, because it has sprung from the material world. This animalistic reality of man he shares in common with the animals. The human body is like animals subject to nature’s laws. But man is endowed with a second reality, the rational or intellectual reality; and the intellectual reality of man predominates over nature. . . . Yet there is a third reality in man, the spiritual reality." (`Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, 51)
A local flood fits the evidence of a catastrophic flood of the Tigris Euphrates valley.