Cardinal fears criminal charges for preaching anti-gay messages in Canada

[Jaymes]

You are suggesting that homosexuality is a "psychological" problem that therapy can cure. I don't think gays are "sick". Psychology cannot cure "sin" (rebellion from God). Homosexuality is free will choice to sin. God loves "sinners", but hates the "sin".

You know what they say when you assume, Sabio.

I am lesbian, I know it isn't a psychological issue. What I said was in response to the site you linked to.

Also homosexuality is born of decption. People are tempted and decieved by Satan into believing they are "gay without choice".

Until you have lived the life of someone who is gay, someone who WANTS to be straight, wants to be "normal," and realizes that they can't because they're just not attracted in the least to the opposite sex, it is my opinion that you have no right to say such.

I would like to reiterate, my comments are not meant to tear down gays, I sincerely love and pray for their salvation.

Sabio

And I sincerely wish you to open your eyes to the world around you, realize that the gay and lesbian community is not comprised of a bunch of godless heathens, but people, and realize that when people say they need to change who they are, who they love, just because a religion many don't even believe in say it's bad, it can be annoying at best and hurtful at worst.

 

[JohnG139]

 Gay is a free will lifestyle choice (of sin), its not the same as ethnicity which is not sin.

There is medical evidence that gay behavior is not a choice, but an inherited disposition. (hormone balance?) therefore gays can be considered a minority.
Gays themselves strongly maintain their lifestyle is not a choice, but just a fact of their existance. Thus how can we consider it a sin?
A true christian wil live his/her life according to their own beliefs, and only judge their own behavior. Am I mistaken that christianity preaches that only God is capable/justified in sitting in judgement?
Who are we to sit in judgement of others and condemn them for what we consider a sin?
Let's het our own house/head in order

 

[Pah]

Pah, I do believe there is hope for you! Because you are on this forum hearing the truth from the Word of God!

Sabio

:biglaugh: I listen to Gregorian chants too! And they also put me to sleep. I'm afraid without logic and facts - there is no truth. Just as your ideas about homosexuality.

 

[JohnG139]

Gay is a free will lifestyle choice (of sin), its not the same as ethnicity which is not sin.

There is medical evidence that hosexuality is not a choice, but an inherited attribute. Gays themselves have long maintained that there's is not a lifestyle choice. Thus how can it be a sin?
Truse christians will live their lives according to their belief systems, and only judge their own behavior.
Am I wrong to state that christianity preaches that only God is capable/justified in sitting in judgement?
Who are we to sit in judgement over over others for what we consider to be a sin???
Judgemental comments are in themselves sinful.
Let's get our own house/heads in order before we cast the first stone!!

 

[Sabio]

There is medical evidence that hosexuality is not a choice, but an inherited attribute. Gays themselves have long maintained that there's is not a lifestyle choice. Thus how can it be a sin?
Truse christians will live their lives according to their belief systems, and only judge their own behavior.

Backup data please...

Am I wrong to state that christianity preaches that only God is capable/justified in sitting in judgement?
Who are we to sit in judgement over over others for what we consider to be a sin???
Judgemental comments are in themselves sinful.
Let's get our own house/heads in order before we cast the first stone!!

Here is instruction for true Christians from God's word concerning our ability and need to judge:
Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?


1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


1 Corinthians 6:4
If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

1 Corinthians 6:5
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

1 Corinthians 10:15
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

As far as me judging homosexuals; I do not have to judge because God has already judged, and I do not sit in judgement of their eternal destiny, God judges that as well.
If you are asking if I judge that homosexuality is a sin, the answer is yes, because I have been told this in God's Word and I beleive it. If you as a Christian cannot judge between right and wrong, or what constitutes sin, then how do you know what you believe?

Let's get our own house/heads in order before we cast the first stone!!

Amen! but do not let your own sins prevent you from trying to help others!

Sabio

 

[Sabio]

:biglaugh: I listen to Gregorian chants too! And they also put me to sleep. I'm afraid without logic and facts - there is no truth. Just as your ideas about homosexuality.

Pah,

Interesting enough Gregorian chants are songs of praise to God! I agree they are very relaxing... The peace of the Holy Spirit comes through praising God!

Sabio

 

[Sabio]

You know what they say when you assume, Sabio.

I am lesbian, I know it isn't a psychological issue. What I said was in response to the site you linked to.


Until you have lived the life of someone who is gay, someone who WANTS to be straight, wants to be "normal," and realizes that they can't because they're just not attracted in the least to the opposite sex, it is my opinion that you have no right to say such.


And I sincerely wish you to open your eyes to the world around you, realize that the gay and lesbian community is not comprised of a bunch of godless heathens, but people, and realize that when people say they need to change who they are, who they love, just because a religion many don't even believe in say it's bad, it can be annoying at best and hurtful at worst.

Jensa,

I am sorry for your struggle and pain, I do not wish that on anyone, and I pray that God will give you understanding and peace.

I did not say that gays and lesbians were godless. None of us who follow Jesus Christ are not without sin (starting with me), we just have an opportunity to reconcile with God through the sacrifice of Jesus, He gave his life so that we could be free from sin.
I'm positive that there are untold numbers of gays and lesbians that are Christians and struggling with the sin of homosexuality. God loves homosexuals and wants to reconcile with them. I pray in Jesus name that the spirit of homosexuality would loose them from its grip, and keep them in chains no longer.

Sabio

 

[Pah]

Pah,

Interesting enough Gregorian chants are songs of praise to God! I agree they are very relaxing... The peace of the Holy Spirit comes through praising God!

Sabio

hehehe Chants are gibberish - they have as much meaning to me as Auhmmm does to you

 

[Sabio]

hehehe Chants are gibberish - they have as much meaning to me as Auhmmm does to you

Pah, I'm suprised at you! Admitting that you listen to gibberish? How unscientific, how illogical!

Sabio

 

[Voxton]

This message is hidden because Sabio is on your ignore list.

My initial, knee-jerk reaction to seeing this message was curiosity -- like, dang, what did he say? Where do I click to see what he said? Then I realized the ignore list is a mighty sensible thing.

 

[Jaymes]

Jensa,

I am sorry for your struggle and pain, I do not wish that on anyone, and I pray that God will give you understanding and peace.

I have understanding and peace. I'm rather sure I'm lesbian because nature doesn't want me reproducing I have so much stuff wrong with me genetically me being lesbian was probably just a way to weed me out of the gene pool. The only thing I need understanding and peace with is society's treatment of homosexuals.

I did not say that gays and lesbians were godless.

I apologize for implying you did. For obvious reasons, this is a touchy subject with me.

I'm positive that there are untold numbers of gays and lesbians that are Christians and struggling with the sin of homosexuality. God loves homosexuals and wants to reconcile with them. I pray in Jesus name that the spirit of homosexuality would loose them from its grip, and keep them in chains no longer.

My girlfriend, and thousands of other happy couples, will probably disagree with you there. The reality of the matter is that it is not homosexuality that is the chain... but society. I've never been happier than when I'm with my girlfriend. It's when I get stared at and called "***" and "lesbo" by others that I feel awful, not when I'm with my girlfriend.

Since nobody else has linked to any sources, here's a link to Wikipedia, which has an article on reparative therapy, along with no few resources at the bottom of it to statements on homosexuality being innate.

"The American Psychiatric Association (APA) (which concluded in 1973 that homosexuality is not a mental illness) stated in a 1998 position statement unanimously endorsed by its Board of Trustees that there are no scientifically rigorous studies to indicate the actual "efficacy or harm of 'reparative' treatments" and that conversion therapists have yet to produce "any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure... Recent publicized efforts to repathologize homosexuality by claiming that it can be cured are often guided not by rigorous scientific or psychiatric research, but sometimes by religious and political forces opposed to full civil rights for gay men and lesbians." The APA position statement ends with a recommendation for ethical practitioners to "refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.""
"On the question of whether therapy can change sexual orientation the APA answers:

"No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable."

 

[rainbowchristianqld]

Hey folks, back to the Original Post please if we can...

But first...
I can see Sabio's heart is in the right place, just has trouble expressing it in a more thoughtful/conciderate way.
I heard a good quote from a (straight) christian once: Instead of yelling "Repent, Repent, Repent", say "Come, Come, Come"... If ever I've heard one, that would be the best way to fill a church and get people filled with the Holy Spirit. THAT would allow God (and the Holy Spirit) to do what your anti-gay preaching could never do. If it's GOD's WILL that they change their sexuality, it will be done.

To Pah, Jensa and Michel(and any other Gay/Gay-Christian/Pro-Gay people). Equality is just around the corner. Let the love of God keep you strong.

 

[James the Persian]

Can I just point out that, even for Christians, homosexuality is not a sin? It's a temptation. Sin is acting out that temptation, so for me my biggest temptation is my quick temper but being quick to anger isn't a sin - acting out on that anger and attacking someone would be (and for what it's worth, my temper isn't a free will choice any more than I believe the homosexual temptation is a free will choice). From a Christian perspective then, engaging in sexual acts with the same sex is a sin but being attracted to the same sex most certainly is not. I don't know why so many Christians seem to get overly het up about this issue. If a person is unrepentantly and deliberately engaging in homosexual sex then they are not and cannot be Christians in just the same way as I would be no Christian if I unrepentantly ran around attacking everyone who annoyed me. If they struggle not to, however, then they can be a Christian no matter how often they fail so long as they get back up and repent. We are all sinners by Christian standards and we shouldn't lose sight of the fact. No sin is inherently lesser or greater than another: they are all failures to 'hit the mark'. Finally, of course, many homosexuals are not and do not claim to be Christians. We should not single them out as homosexuals but treat them with exactly the same love we should give to other non-Christians. In my opinion it's the gay-bashing Christians that are by far the worst sinners if compared to non-Christian homosexuals.

James

 

[michel]

Can I just point out that, even for Christians, homosexuality is not a sin? It's a temptation. Sin is acting out that temptation, so for me my biggest temptation is my quick temper but being quick to anger isn't a sin - acting out on that anger and attacking someone would be (and for what it's worth, my temper isn't a free will choice any more than I believe the homosexual temptation is a free will choice). From a Christian perspective then, engaging in sexual acts with the same sex is a sin but being attracted to the same sex most certainly is not. I don't know why so many Christians seem to get overly het up about this issue. If a person is unrepentantly and deliberately engaging in homosexual sex then they are not and cannot be Christians in just the same way as I would be no Christian if I unrepentantly ran around attacking everyone who annoyed me. If they struggle not to, however, then they can be a Christian no matter how often they fail so long as they get back up and repent. We are all sinners by Christian standards and we shouldn't lose sight of the fact. No sin is inherently lesser or greater than another: they are all failures to 'hit the mark'. Finally, of course, many homosexuals are not and do not claim to be Christians. We should not single them out as homosexuals but treat them with exactly the same love we should give to other non-Christians. In my opinion it's the gay-bashing Christians that are by far the worst sinners if compared to non-Christian homosexuals.

James

How refreshing! Thank you James - that is the response from a caring individual who is truly acting out his religious principles - "If I had a golden star I'd pin it on you" - I'm not sure which song that comes from, but that is how I feel at your post.:clap

 

[Sabio]

Can I just point out that, even for Christians, homosexuality is not a sin? It's a temptation. Sin is acting out that temptation, so for me my biggest temptation is my quick temper but being quick to anger isn't a sin - acting out on that anger and attacking someone would be (and for what it's worth, my temper isn't a free will choice any more than I believe the homosexual temptation is a free will choice). From a Christian perspective then, engaging in sexual acts with the same sex is a sin but being attracted to the same sex most certainly is not. I don't know why so many Christians seem to get overly het up about this issue. If a person is unrepentantly and deliberately engaging in homosexual sex then they are not and cannot be Christians in just the same way as I would be no Christian if I unrepentantly ran around attacking everyone who annoyed me. If they struggle not to, however, then they can be a Christian no matter how often they fail so long as they get back up and repent. We are all sinners by Christian standards and we shouldn't lose sight of the fact. No sin is inherently lesser or greater than another: they are all failures to 'hit the mark'. Finally, of course, many homosexuals are not and do not claim to be Christians. We should not single them out as homosexuals but treat them with exactly the same love we should give to other non-Christians. In my opinion it's the gay-bashing Christians that are by far the worst sinners if compared to non-Christian homosexuals.

James

Amen James!

 

[Sabio]

I have understanding and peace. I'm rather sure I'm lesbian because nature doesn't want me reproducing I have so much stuff wrong with me genetically me being lesbian was probably just a way to weed me out of the gene pool. The only thing I need understanding and peace with is society's treatment of homosexuals.

Jensa, No matter how much stuff you think is wrong with you, God still loves you and wants a relationship with you. Don't ever stop seeking him,

 

[Sabio]

Hey folks, back to the Original Post please if we can...

But first...
I can see Sabio's heart is in the right place, just has trouble expressing it in a more thoughtful/conciderate way.
I heard a good quote from a (straight) christian once: Instead of yelling "Repent, Repent, Repent", say "Come, Come, Come"... If ever I've heard one, that would be the best way to fill a church and get people filled with the Holy Spirit. THAT would allow God (and the Holy Spirit) to do what your anti-gay preaching could never do. If it's GOD's WILL that they change their sexuality, it will be done.

To Pah, Jensa and Michel(and any other Gay/Gay-Christian/Pro-Gay people). Equality is just around the corner. Let the love of God keep you strong.

Thanks...

I'm not anti-gay, but I am anti-sin (mine also), because sin ultimately seperates you from God, and I don't want anyone to become eternally seperated from God. Repentance is the only way to reconcile your sin, whatever it may be, I have to repent every day, this is why I talk about it. So I am not perfect, and I'm not preaching down to anyone, I'm testifying as a sinner that God has made a way out of your sin, through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

But back to the original question... I don't think the Cardinal (or and other Christians) should be prosecuted, persecuted, or bashed because they stand up for what God requires of us, or calls sin what it is, or for not candy-coating sin for consumption by the masses, or turning sin into pop-psychology, or avoiding the mention of sin in order to be politically correct and acceptable. Christians have been persecuted and put to death for their beliefs for 2 milleniums, Jesus went to the cross for His beliefs, the Apostles were horribly killed for their beliefs, Christians were fed to lions in Rome for their beliefs. This attack on the Cardinal is nothing new, the world hates to hear about sin, because it is convicting in their spirit. I will pray for God to strenghthen the Cardinal and see him through this persecution.

Sabio

Sabio

 

[Jaymes]

Jensa, No matter how much stuff you think is wrong with you, God still loves you and wants a relationship with you. Don't ever stop seeking him,

I don't think stuff is wrong with me, I know it is. It's just a body, though. There are more important things to worry about.

Even if I disagree with you, I can see you're compassionate, and I apologize that I've been short with you. Thank you for your kind thoughts.

 

[Sabio]

I don't think stuff is wrong with me, I know it is. It's just a body, though. There are more important things to worry about.

Even if I disagree with you, I can see you're compassionate, and I apologize that I've been short with you. Thank you for your kind thoughts.

I wish you only wisdom, knowledge, and understanding Jensa...

Sabio