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Cardinal fears criminal charges for preaching anti-gay messages in Canada

Couldn't find any other threads about this article so thought I'd put it up.

I think the issue is that: The church doesn't want to receive what they've been giving.
They cringe at the thought that they may lose that which gay people have been denied for hundreds of years by the church: "Acceptance" , "Tolerance" and "Equality"

As always, I find it extraordinary that some people want to deny peoples (non-religous) rights, privilages, acceptance, value of life, happiness, children, spouses etc... all in the name of something that can only be known as a "Tradition".

Anyone else have views on this?

The_Globe said:
OTTAWA -- Canada's top Roman Catholic cardinal says vocal opponents of same-sex marriage will risk criminal charges if the institution is legally extended to include gay and lesbian couples.
"Already, the appeal to conscience in any matter pertaining to homosexuality risks being dismissed as 'homophobia,' " Cardinal Marc Ouellet told a Senate committee hearing arguments for and against Bill C-38, the same-sex marriage law.

"These attempts to intimidate persons who do not share the state's vision of marriage may well multiply after the adoption of Bill C-38. Once the state imposes a new standard affirming that homosexual sexual behaviour is a social good, those who oppose it for religious motives or motives of conscience will be considered as bigots, anti-gay and homophobes, and then risk prosecution."

Cardinal Ouellet said the language used by proponents of homosexual marriage has made it difficult to challenge those unions, even from the pulpit.

There's a type of climate that exists where we no longer feel we can express our opinion," he told reporters after his presentation to the Senate committee.


"We realize if we say certain things we may get accused of homophobia or of hatred, bigotry. . . . Even our priests sometimes do not feel free even to preach on homosexuality on the morality -- sexual morality -- because they are accused of homophobia and they are threatened for prosecution," he said.

"This is an insane atmosphere in our country and our communities and it is not good for religious freedom."

Justice Minister Irwin Cotler, who brought the bill before Parliament, was out of the country yesterday and unavailable for comment.

But his communications director, Denise Rudnicki, dismissed the notion that the bill promotes homosexuality as a social good or that opponents would be prosecuted.

"Bill C-38 has nothing to do with sexual behaviour. It is extending the right to civil marriage to gay and lesbian couples. It makes no comment about social good, although we believe this is good public policy to strengthen families," Ms. Rudnicki said.

"The second issue is that religious freedom is protected. You have the constitutional right to the expression of your religious freedom."

It is not the first time that Cardinal Ouellet has publicly condemned the bill. In January, he said it would unleash nothing less than a cultural upheaval.

Yesterday, he said declaring homosexual marriages to be the equivalent of heterosexual unions is an affront to married men and women.

That is "false, wrong and offensive to people who are married and have committed before society, have produced children for society," he said.

"This is something a homosexual union cannot offer to society, and you would like Canadian society to accept that as justice itself? I have to say I find that completely irrational."

But he said he did not believe Catholic MPs who voted in favour of the same-sex bill should be prevented from taking communion.

Charlie Angus, a New Democrat from Northern Ontario, was denied communion in his diocese of Timmins after he supported the legislation. And Joe Comartin, a New Democrat from Windsor who taught pre-marriage classes in his church, saw his liturgical privileges suspended.

Cardinal Ouellet said politicians must take their own beliefs, and those of their church, into account when they make legislative decisions but they must also have the freedom to act on behalf of their constituents.

"You do not lose your right to belong to a community because you do not vote in the right way," he said.

"We are a community of sinners and we are all sinners in one or the other way so we have to be welcoming for all our members and help them to be more coherent and not to exclude them."
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
rainbowchristianqld,

(hehe I copied and pasted your name - the only way I would ever get it right!) This is a sore and touchy subject. One of my main problems is that I have not yet mastered the art of the fine balance between Religious doctrine, my emotional reactions to certain topics, and my genuine love for all creatures created by God.

I really can always understand both 'sides' - and am often found woth a foot in each camp. Since, for this one we are talking of Canada, and I am in England, that's quite uncomfortable...........

Whilst the Cardinal fears criminal charges for preaching anti-Gay messages in Canada, there are Muslims in England, who, at this very moment are calling The English and the Americans 'murderers' - free speech is never free - it often comes at the cost of only being free to certain sectors....

I have always publicised my stance on the 'Gay' problem - and I have now made it a problem, by writing it as I have - do you see what I mean? - there is only a problem if people make it a problem.

My heart goes out to the Cardinal, because he is following his heart, and his devotion to God's way..... I think he should be allowed to have his say, without fear - as should pro-Gays, and Gays themselves.

As a 'civilized' people, we in the West have a lot to learn (I don't include the East simply because i don't know their stance on this) - although maybe more Gays in China would make the birthrate drop..........silly comment, but I have made it.

It is not the speech itself , in Free speech that causes trouble, it is the lynch mob following that it engenders - that is the destructive power.

All I can ask is for divine help, in order that I may see things more clearly - at the moment, my heart bleeds for all parties - I wish it could be full of Joy; this vicarious pain is heavy, on my mind, and on my shoulders......:(
 

Original Freak

I am the ORIGINAL Freak
Yesterday, he said declaring homosexual marriages to be the equivalent of heterosexual unions is an affront to married men and women.

That is "false, wrong and offensive to people who are married and have committed before society, have produced children for society," he said.

I have yet to see a non religious argument as to why any Marriage is offensive or affects another marriage in anyway..

I believe the cardinal is over reacting. I don't think a chuch will be punished for not accepting gay marriage, and they won't get in trouble for expressing their views on it. Unless they attempt to incite violence or act upon their hatred. In that case then it's no longer just their opinions.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Scott1 said:
May God bless Cardinal Marc Ouellet!
Amen.:shout

"I believe the cardinal is over reacting. I don't think a chuch will be punished for not accepting gay marriage, and they won't get in trouble for expressing their views on it. Unless they attempt to incite violence or act upon their hatred. In that case then it's no longer just their opinions"

You cannot speak on behalf of a man of the cloth - you cannot understand his mindset - as for incitement and inciting violence, Have you any corroberating evidence of that happening?;)
 

Original Freak

I am the ORIGINAL Freak
michel said:
Amen.:shout

"I believe the cardinal is over reacting. I don't think a chuch will be punished for not accepting gay marriage, and they won't get in trouble for expressing their views on it. Unless they attempt to incite violence or act upon their hatred. In that case then it's no longer just their opinions"

You cannot speak on behalf of a man of the cloth - you cannot understand his mindset - as for incitement and inciting violence, Have you any corroberating evidence of that happening?;)
I never spoke for the man of the cloth. I said his statements, what he said, is an overreaction to the situation. I also believe his statements are aimed at shedding a negative light on the same sex marriage debate.

Your right, I cannot understand his minset, but I also never said he was inciting violence or hatred, but IF he did ("Unless they attempt to ") then it would be a different story. I think you misread what I wrote.
 

Sabio

Active Member
rainbowchristianqld said:
I think the issue is that: The church doesn't want to receive what they've been giving.
They cringe at the thought that they may lose that which gay people have been denied for hundreds of years by the church: "Acceptance" , "Tolerance" and "Equality"
Anyone else have views on this?
I hear it all the time lately, how Christians should be "tolerant" or "accepting" of gays, lesbians, bisexual, cross gender, ect. Usually this is frothed up by the media.

But God sees these things as sin, and He is a Holy God who cannot be "tolerant" or "accepting" of sin. Thus those people who choose to live these lifestyles willingly seperate themselves from God in order to serve their own desires. God still loves them, and so should we, we should not mistreat these people because of their sin. But going by God's example we should not be tolerant or accepting of this sin as "normal". The reason there is so much acceptance of these sins in society today is because society has become increasingly numb to sin, through the constant bombardment with images of these sins by the media.

Sabio
 

Pah

Uber all member
Condemantion of homosexuality from the pulpit with a homosexual in the congregation could lead to a charge of hate speech. It's not a law to force acceptance, it's a law to silence. It also stems from the higher authority of a secular government in enforcing social policy.

IIn the United States, a hate speech law as part of antidiscrimination policy, when broken, could lead to removal of all tax benefits. The precedent here is the Supreme Court case that decided against the religious Bob Jones University

In Canada -

What are the advantages of being a registered charity?
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/t4063/t4063eq.html#P184_9792
There are two basic advantages of being a registered charity:

* Registration allows an organization to issue official receipts for gifts received. This reduces the individual donor's income tax payable, and reduces the taxable income of a corporate donor.
* Once the organization is registered, it is exempt from paying income tax (under Part I of the Income Tax Act).
I imagine it would be more severe in Canada if a tax exemption were removed
 

Voxton

·
michel said:
I have always publicised my stance on the 'Gay' problem - and I have now made it a problem, by writing it as I have - do you see what I mean? - there is only a problem if people make it a problem.
Whenever you have a thought like this, run it by yourself one more time -- only substitute 'Gay' for something else, like 'Jew' or 'black.' Get it?

michel said:
My heart goes out to the Cardinal, because he is following his heart, and his devotion to God's way.....
Yeah, okay. So did Torquemada.

It used to be socially acceptable to consider Jews and blacks uh, -- a 'problem.' This is no longer the case, thankfully -- and you know what? It took an awful lot of government interference to get to this point. I personally treasure free speech above all other liberties, but there are always limits to these liberties. And this just might be one of those cases.
 

Sabio

Active Member
Voxton said:
Whenever you have a thought like this, run it by yourself one more time -- only substitute 'Gay' for something else, like 'Jew' or 'black.' Get it?
Is this an assumption that Gays (lesbians, bi-sexuals, trans-sexuals) should be recognized as "minorities" like African Americans or Jews?

Gay is a free will lifestyle choice (of sin), its not the same as ethnicity which is not sin.

I think the Cardinal is well aware of this. He can love gays (with Jesus love) but still hate the sin they are committing, and speak out against it so others will not follow them down the path of sin.

Sabio
 

Sabio

Active Member
Original Freak said:
You actually think people choose to be gay?
Absolutely! No doubt about it.

And gays can also choose to turn from that lifestyle, Exodus International is helping thousands of people who are trapped in the gay lifestyle understand what God's word says about homosexuality, repent from this sin, and come into a loving relationship with Jesus. http://www.exodus-international.org/

There is hope for gays, if we love them and understand that they are decieved by Satan and bound to a sinful lifestyle that they chose of their own free will.

I pray for their salvation.

Sabio
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Sabio said:
Absolutely! No doubt about it.

And gays can also choose to turn from that lifestyle, Exodus International is helping thousands of people who are trapped in the gay lifestyle understand what God's word says about homosexuality, repent from this sin, and come into a loving relationship with Jesus. http://www.exodus-international.org/

There is hope for gays, if we love them and understand that they are decieved by Satan and bound to a sinful lifestyle that they chose of their own free will.

I pray for their salvation.

Sabio
PLEASE SABIO!

Have you been gay ? - and have you stopped being Gay because you 'have seen the light' ? There are some on this forum who are gay; do you really think that people would voluntarily want to 'sign up' to a way of life in which they are going to be 'Gay Bashed' - by people just like you, and when they are restricting their choice of 'partners' in numbers, because there are many fewer Gays than Straights.

As far as your statements go on Gays, I suggest you think on "Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:";)
 

Sabio

Active Member
michel said:
PLEASE SABIO!

Have you been gay ? - and have you stopped being Gay because you 'have seen the light' ? There are some on this forum who are gay; do you really think that people would voluntarily want to 'sign up' to a way of life in which they are going to be 'Gay Bashed' - by people just like you, and when they are restricting their choice of 'partners' in numbers, because there are many fewer Gays than Straights.

As far as your statements go on Gays, I suggest you think on "Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:";)
Michel,

You misunderstand my intentions. I have plainly stated that I love "gays" just as Jesus does, and I do not believe that they should be "bashed" or mistreated. My experience is with gay friends and their struggle.

However, I cannot deny what the Bible says about homosexuality:

Lev 18:22 [font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."[/font]

Lev 20:13 [font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination...[/font]

[font=arial,helvetica]Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."[/font]


I did not say these things Michel, God did, and it is He who Judge's so I have no need. It is up to us Christians to tell "gays" the truth, pray for them, and help them as we would anyone else that has gone astray. Gays need to know that there is an alternative to the suffering of the gay lifestyle, through Jesus.


Sabio
 

Pah

Uber all member
Sabio said:
Absolutely! No doubt about it.

And gays can also choose to turn from that lifestyle, Exodus International is helping thousands of people who are trapped in the gay lifestyle understand what God's word says about homosexuality, repent from this sin, and come into a loving relationship with Jesus. http://www.exodus-international.org/

There is hope for gays, if we love them and understand that they are decieved by Satan and bound to a sinful lifestyle that they chose of their own free will.

I pray for their salvation.

Sabio
I'm afraid there is little hope for you, my friend, if you continue to beleive the biased lie about homosexuality.
 

Original Freak

I am the ORIGINAL Freak
Sabio said:
Absolutely! No doubt about it.

And gays can also choose to turn from that lifestyle, Exodus International is helping thousands of people who are trapped in the gay lifestyle understand what God's word says about homosexuality, repent from this sin, and come into a loving relationship with Jesus. http://www.exodus-international.org/

There is hope for gays, if we love them and understand that they are decieved by Satan and bound to a sinful lifestyle that they chose of their own free will.

I pray for their salvation.

Sabio
Supressing and not acting upon sexual lusts and tendancies does not a hetrosexual make.

Can I be cured of the fact I like women with Tattoo's, or that I find Asian women (generally) the most attractive race? I didn't sit there and choose these things, I just happen to find them attractive.
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
Sabio said:
And gays can also choose to turn from that lifestyle, Exodus International is helping thousands of people who are trapped in the gay lifestyle understand what God's word says about homosexuality, repent from this sin, and come into a loving relationship with Jesus. http://www.exodus-international.org/

There is hope for gays, if we love them and understand that they are decieved by Satan and bound to a sinful lifestyle that they chose of their own free will.

I pray for their salvation.

Sabio
How do you explain the extremely high percentage of people that go through "therapy" for homosexuality and AREN'T changed? If I recall correctly, the number is somewhere around 75%.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I'd rather burn for who I am than be spared for who I am not.
 

Sabio

Active Member
Original Freak said:
Supressing and not acting upon sexual lusts and tendancies does not a hetrosexual make.

Can I be cured of the fact I like women with Tattoo's, or that I find Asian women (generally) the most attractive race? I didn't sit there and choose these things, I just happen to find them attractive.
Good points, homosexuals and heterosexuals both battle the sin of "sexual lust" (me too). Sexual lust is sin according to God and His Word, we must ask God's foregiveness and repent of it (turn away from it).

Sabio
 

Sabio

Active Member
Jensa said:
How do you explain the extremely high percentage of people that go through "therapy" for homosexuality and AREN'T changed? If I recall correctly, the number is somewhere around 75%.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I'd rather burn for who I am than be spared for who I am not.
You are suggesting that homosexuality is a "psychological" problem that therapy can cure. I don't think gays are "sick". Psychology cannot cure "sin" (rebellion from God). Homosexuality is free will choice to sin. God loves "sinners", but hates the "sin".

Also homosexuality is born of decption. People are tempted and decieved by Satan into believing they are "gay without choice".

I would like to reiterate, my comments are not meant to tear down gays, I sincerely love and pray for their salvation.

Sabio
 

Sabio

Active Member
Pah said:
I'm afraid there is little hope for you, my friend, if you continue to beleive the biased lie about homosexuality.
Pah, I do believe there is hope for you! Because you are on this forum hearing the truth from the Word of God!

Sabio
 
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