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Featured Canonization of the Saints

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Dec 12, 2018.

  1. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Humans cannot ‘turn staffs into snakes.’ Come on.
     
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    Being a slave to god means you are devoted to him so much you don't have free will (nor have pride to have it) because it is all about god.

    When you say "forced" that is contrary to non-ego devotion.

    I would assume the free will god gave you was to worship him. But I see no sense in free will if you have the choice to sin. It sets you up to sin.

    If god wanted you to be devoted to him, by what means is your will free that he gives when it only leads to sin?

    In other words, free will isn't benefitial if god gave it to you to choose sin. It's still force but instead of devotion it's an ultimatum.

    When you have free will to sin it is not benefitial. It's better god gave you no free will (no choice to sin) so that your choices are Only for god.

    If that makes you feel uncomfortable, in my opinion, that's ego. The flesh wanting to be right over spirit.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Believe it or not, my own grandmother (on my mother's side) was heavily into spiritism as a continuation of her own inherited beliefs in the supernatural. Her mother was also deeply into spiritism and predicting the future, visitations etc. There was contact with the spirits and my childhood was filled with my Nana's "ghost" stories. It too was natural for me to accept it as not being so bad.

    Despite my "Christian" upbringing, we were never taught the difference between what is "spiritual" and what is "spiritistic", so my own upbringing was a mix of both worlds.

    Before I married my husband, my family and I sat around my grandmother's ouija board and it told us that something important would happen on the the 8th of September. We all laughed and said I would probably get married on that date in a few years. I thought little more about it but that year, on the 8th of September, my father was stricken with a massive heart attack and died instantly. I was standing right beside him and he never uttered a sound....it was that quick.

    I struggled with what had happened and I felt sickened by it. My father's death completely gutted my family and I began to wonder if the "spirits" that told us the date, actually facilitated the means to fulfill their own prediction? It left a very nasty taste in my mouth. We took the ouija board out and burned it. I was very suspicious about the supernatural from that time onward.

    Actually, what you would have studied is what I was raised with....but there is no way, after studying the Bible for many years, that I would call it "Christianity". It is a corrupted form, that ended up as something Jesus would not even recognize. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    According to the Bible spirits have been around longer that the universe. Their interference was the reason why God brought the flood of Noah's day. They caused all the violence and licentiousness that tormented Noah.
    It was a drastic problem that required a drastic solution. The fact that flood legends appear in almost every culture on earth supports the belief that the flood was a real event.

    That is a good point. Though "watering down" is an understatement IMO. Blatantly ignoring what Jesus taught is more correct. The one thing Jesus never recommended was to get involved in politics. On the contrary, he told his disciples to be "no part of the world" and even to "love" their enemies. (John 15:18-21; Matthew 5:43-45)

    When he was being tempted by the devil it was revealed that the devil was the ruler of this world and that he could bestow authority to rule on whomever he wished. (Luke 4:5-8)

    We are not to oppose the authorities....but we realize who is pulling their strings. Their actions betray who is influencing them. God will deal with them, we don't have to. (Daniel 2:44)

    Yes, that's a good start.

    We only have the Bible to guide us, and what it contains is amazing when you study it without the pre-conceived notions that Christendom has added.

    Learning "who" God is is all we can do because we have neither the means nor the intellect to understand "what" he is.

    The Bible tells us that he is the originator of matter, bringing the entire universe in to existence with a display of his unlimited energy. From the raw materials he created, all things were fashioned or fabricated.

    His purpose originally was to have a race of perfect humans to oversee his creation and to act as caretakers and zookeepers. They alone were given his qualities so as to act as his representatives. One of the prime faculties he endowed humans with, apart from their moral qualities, was free will, so that in any given situation, humans would respond to it as he would. (we know that free will was misused and things turned out badly, but we are presently in the outworking of that detour.)

    All will return to God's original purpose in due time. (Isaiah 55:11) Don't confuse humans misusing free will with God losing control.....he never has.

    He reveals his personality to us also in the pages of the Bible, by means of his interactions with us humans as individuals and as a nation who was under obligation by birth to uphold his laws....and also through the actions of his son. So we have living examples of what he requires and what pleases him and displeases him. We also have a small demonstration of his power in the miracles that were performed in the past, by means of his spirit....small bananas when compared with the creation of the universe, but useful to us nonetheless here on planet earth.

    His purpose will be carried out to completion because he does not fail to accomplish all that he set out in the beginning to do. He has no limits on time, or patience, so all will be done as he dictates, in the timeframe that he allows. The details in the Bible are not enough to convince a lot of people who want more than what it states. But to people of faith whose eyes and minds are not closed to the possibilities.....the future looks amazing.

    Are there any specific questions you would like answered according to our beliefs?
     
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  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    I'm in the middle of reading. I was asking the definition of god rather than gods character. Is there a definition of god in JW? I get mostly he is a spirit though no one told me what they meant by that. The spirits I know aren't quite describe the same as a creator. But then, some define him as a force. Some a being, I guess like Greek mythology (how I interpret it). Others say he is defined as a spiritual or enlightenment experience like gnostic. These explain the nature of god rather than who and what he does.

    Does JW have a definition of god with whom the bible speaks "about"?
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    No. I want to ask, honestly. Do questions and conversations about christianity from who you speak with (not just me) lead you to believe the other wants to follow christ?

    Is it automatic or scripture based that everyone wants to learn about who god because of jesus conversations?

    After reading this, I think you have good enough reasons to believe what you do. If religion (however defined), any religion, have been in my upbringing, Id probably fall back on that or turn to that too. Ive learned, on the otherhand, that because our experiences are perceived by our mind and environment, anything we take up can pretty much be true.

    Your post on the other thread/post in the near-death experience was excellent. I think to put a different perspective, its just not in the minds of the dying. That near-death god-view is also in and from the mind of the living. We arent separated from the illusions of what the dying sees and what we see, those who arent dying. I just think we are more conditioned to think our beliefs are reality.

    My question for conversation (not to follow christ) is, what is the definition of god in JW religion? The bible talks about god; but, does it mention what a creator is other that it creates?

    Its like the dictionary. Some words you look up, say, what does talking mean. It it says: when somebody is talking.

    :confused: Let me ask also. In your spirit-experiences, by what means did you connect the date of the Ouiji Boards "answer" and your loved ones heart attack?

    Its a very heart breaking experience (no pun), but it also seems like self fulling prophecy and confirmation bias. Can you define what makes those two events connect without the bible as a reference?

    This would help get an idea of how you connect your experiences with god.

    Supernatural experiences arent biased. We just like to put the good ones in one box and the bad ones in another. From my mothers view, she says she has conversations with spirits (however defined) daily. Yet, just by saying that, that may conjure up definitions that, to us, could be completely wrong.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    We have no way to define what a "spirit" is. All we know is that they are lifeforms without a material body. The angels are spirits who have power and intellect and free will, but on a higher level than us. There is only one "God" however who created all the spirits in the same spiritual "form" as himself.

    Only after the creation of humans did some of these angels entertain the idea that disobeying God might be a good idea. They know their fate, but they will take as many down with them as they can.
    We decide if we are going to be among those ones.

    Most definitely not. Jesus said that no one can come to the son (as a disciple) unless he/she is "drawn" by the Father. (John 6:44) That is interesting because it explains why the Christian message is preached to all...even to those who don't want to hear it. It is their response to the message that stirs their heart, often without them even being aware of it. Its something that just strikes a chord and they have their curiosity peaked....whether they wanted it to be or not.

    In my own case, I had no intentions of listening to a word that JW's said when they called at my door....until I lost my father. I was taught that he had gone to heaven by the minister who conducted his funeral, but that never made sense to me. Even though my father was a good man, he seldom ever set foot inside a church. My mother told me later that it was because he had lost his brother in the war and they were very close. He somehow blamed God for losing his brother.

    It was a few years later, after I was married that they called, and I asked (rather sarcastically)......"where are the dead?" I expected all the same pathetic platitudes I had heard from all the other church ministers I had asked. But not this time. They opened their Bible and allowed me to read it for myself. What I read, changed my whole life, and has been changing it ever since.

    Not everyone will respond, in fact Jesus said "few" would become true disciples. (Matthew 7:13-14) But everyone would be given the same opportunity to hear the message. (Matthew 24:14)

    We can view anything we choose to believe, as truth....but it doesn't make it so. The easiest person on this planet to fool is ourselves. (Proverbs 3:5-6)

    It is impossible at the present time to answer that question. Even if God was to tell us in detail "what" he is....we do not have the capacity to comprehend it.......a bit like trying to explain quantum physics to an amoeba. Suffice it to say for now...God is a spirit...a non-material Being with enormous power and an iron will...and he has a purpose in our being here.

    I didn't put 2 and 2 together at first, but then, when we writing down the date of my father's death, it sent a jolt through me....and I felt the connection and an uneasy feeling that I couldn't explain. Once you have had dealings with the spirits, you understand that they are out to deceive you and to break any connection you may have with God.

    Since I became a JW, I have had several encounters with demonic spirits who seemed determined to take me over. My connection to Jehovah proved stronger than they were.
    James 4:7 simply says..."Therefore, subject yourselves to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from you." That is the advice I followed and have remained free of demon harassment for many years now. Those who have never had dealings with wicked spirits may find these things hard to believe, but I assure you that they were very real and left me feeling exhausted, but victorious. These are not things I share normally, but since you asked....

    If you wish to interpret it that way, you are free to do so. My experiences are personal and I have spoken with others who have had similar encounters. None of them were pleasant. Thankfully they don't happen to everyone.

    No communication with the spirit realm that leaves God out of the picture is good IMO. There is a reason why God forbade anyone in Israel to contact the spirits. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Our communication is reduced to speaking with God through the provision of his only appointed mediator. Any communication outside of that is spiritually dangerous according to the Bible.


    The apostle Paul stressed that we need to exercise caution in our activities....."so that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs." ( 2 Corinthians 2:11; 2 Timothy 2:26; Luke 22:31) Being aware of his agenda, you understand what to avoid.

    We all choose our own path by the decisions we make regardless of how we were raised.
    That is what I have come to understand.
     
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  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    In my opinion, that makes it quite hard to talk about a god you cant define. If you said god is justice, I would ask who-again?

    Not all of us have a foundation to which we can use pronouns and adjectives to an undefined noun.

    This seems very, um, how can I put it.... .cant think. What is an angel? You dont believe in christondome, so how does the bible describe what an angel is (and do jews believe in angels?)?

    Thats an odd point of view. Blind-sheep view is putting the blame and ignorance on non-believers. If I asked you blunt, are non-believers ignorant? Are we blind insomuch that you would call us to our face (idiom) we are wrong and you are right?

    Nice. I never had issues with JW. They do have a good sense of helping others. The method is not humble and acceptive of others beliefs/facts; but, it isnt demanding.

    I had a different experience with the spirits. I actually feel they come more during when people grieve because our guards are let down. Four or so years ago my grandmother passed. I was about to cross the street, and someone pushed my right shoulder back making me tip over. I said, thank you grandmother. It made me think, others would have said god. I did not. Now I know what they mean we just have different references to the same human experience.

    Years ago, as I was talking to my mother earlier, I remember hearing this loud voice in my head shout STOP! I was crossing the street somewhere and it julted me (as well). I dont see them as demons but I notice the trend is protection.

    There is something about crossing the street I cant put my finger on. Ive almost got hit by two cars by inches. Another car. Had a seizure in the street and manage to get to the other side before I let my body seize. Controling my nerves which one can do by meditation.

    I could attribute these things to god; but, if I did, it wouldnt be the biblical one. Probably something similar to Hindu but not monotheism.

    Yes. Seeing the devil can help balance what you/god feels is good or bad. Without that black, some people cant adjust to the white.

    Im not good with empathetic conversations; but, I think I get ya in a general sense.

    True. My brother started reading the bible after he tried to commit suicide by trying to light himself on fire with gas all over him. He had a lot of numerological experiences and other things we both experience together. I dont have it as bad as he does; but, I feel better that he follows the bible than try to hurt himself...

    so I understand the influence the bible has on people. I havent seen the demon-side just the christ-side.

    Yeah. Thats what I take away with too. More openly than how you described it in your post; but, respectful nonetheless.
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    As I said, I can tell you "who" God is...just not "what" God is. Just read about Jesus in the Christian scriptures, which say that Jesus was the exact representation of his Father in physical form. "Like father like son" is something we understand. Its not hard to talk about someone you know, even if you've never met them. All it requires is communication.

    Some people study the lives of those long dead by examining what others have said about them or by collecting things that they may have written themselves. They can then go on to write biographies so that others can get to know more about them too. This is what I believe the Bible can do in helping us get to know our Creator.

    Some education is needed then. The Bible makes it simple IMO.

    What do you believe an angel is?

    The Bible describes them in a way that portrays them as very faithful servants of their God. Only two angels are named in the Bible...Michael and Gabriel. No others are mentioned by name because God never wanted humans to be tempted to worship these powerful creatures. They had the ability to materialize human form and relay messages to God's human servants on earth.

    When that ability was abused in Noah's day, the rebel angels (who became known as demons) were denied that ability once God forced them back to the spirit realm.
    It is also why God's people were forbidden to practice any form of spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

    We don't know why other angels decided to join in a rebellion that began with just one ambitious spirit being who made himself into a "devil". (meaning slanderer) He slandered God by accusing him of lying and then, knowing what the penalty was for disobedience (death), he tricked the woman into disobeying God, making himself a murderer (a "satan") Jesus said he was a manslayer and a liar when he began. (John 8:44)

    Not really. I see it more like those who wish to take up residence in another country. They put in their application and have to fill out forms that will tell the authorities relevant details about themselves. Once the authorities go through the questions and answers, they can then decide if that person would make a suitable resident of that nation.....or not. Or similarly, to a prospective tenant making application for a rental property. Both require that the person be of high standards in their attitudes, habits and conduct. You would not allow a person to reside in your nation or property unless they met your criteria...would you?

    God is the landlord here...or in the position of owner of the earth. If we want to continue to occupy this planet, which the Landlord is planning to renovate, then we have to prove that we will be the kind of tenant that he is looking for to care for his property whilst we enjoy living here.

    Bad residents are deported....and bad tenants are evicted.....are we the kind of tenant God is looking for? Do we want to follow his rules, or make up our own? He will decide based on the answers to the questions he asks of all of us.

    We cannot accept false religion because it misrepresents God and his Christ. What we teach must be the truth. Jesus never forced his beliefs on anyone and neither do we. The message is offered and people are free to accept it or reject it. The majority will not even care that they are on the wrong road because it suits them to stay where they are. (Matthew 7:13-14) Its still a decision....and that is all God is looking for. We make a decision about him, before he makes a decision about us. He couldn't be fairer than that.

    Oh yes, they will exploit every situation to wheedle their way into your life.....once they are entrenched, try getting rid of them. You will pay dearly for any defection. That has been our experience.

    The devil is identified clearly in scripture. His agenda is also clear. Having had the experiences I have, leaves me in no doubt about any of that.

    Not sure what you mean by this? "numerological experiences and other things we both experience together." " I dont have it as bad as he does"...can you explain? What are you talking about?

    Depending on their activities, (leanings towards supernatural things) demons can be the cause of suicidal thoughts in some individuals who may hear subliminal messages of worthlessness or urging them to kill themselves. Some forms of mental illness can be caused by contact with spirits who masquerade as friends but who prove to be anything but.
    Those who are mentally or emotionally vulnerable can attract these demons who can lead a tormented mind into an even worse state.

    Its an evil world, getting worse by the day. (1 John 5:19) We look forward to the day when everyone living will be united in their belief about who God is, and will all desire to serve him in love and loyalty, grateful for the opportunity to share life in his kingdom.
     
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  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It was not just for the Levites' sake. Here's the 613 Commandments as found in Torah, and please note those that require helping the poor, widows, and orphans through the community and not just the individual: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    We are all free to act responsibly toward God.
    Adam was created upright, so Adam could only break God's Law on purpose by his own choice.
    We inherited wrongful leanings / from father Adam because Adam fathered after he broke God's Law.
    Without choice, then one could accuse God of being a Bully, or forcing someone to love Him.
    So, 'wanting and forcing' are two different things.
    The fallen flesh can Never be right over spirit.
    That is why we need someone who can fix us, so to speak.
    We can't fix oneself or another, but Jesus can and will.
    Then, under Jesus millennium-long day of governing over Earth mankind will become upright (I).
    Upright because there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2.
    Healing will include being healed or cured from our inherited adamic wronglful leanings from father Adam.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Right, and I find they were required to help others as per the Golden Rule found at Leviticus 19:18.
    Please notice Leviticus 19:10-14. Also please notice how even strangers were to be treated at Leviticus 19:33.
    So, beside tithing for the Levites, they did ' voluntary ' giving acts according to Leviticus 1:3; 7:16, so there was both.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find you can try researching at www.jwbroadcasting, and www.jw.org to get the details you ask about.
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    Choice is ego. Moved by spirit is not.
    Adam and Eve had choices so they sinned. God wasnt in and moving within them; so, they had the ability and motivation to sin. They were easily influenced and did not follow god because of their choices not gods.

    Would you accuse god of being a bully if you let him work through you without a say of your own self/flesh? Prophets didnt it. Jesus didnt. Would you?

    Thats why freedom of choice keeps one away from god. Its called being self-righteous. In scripture, it always talks about believers are only good in his sight when they let him move in them In Gods righteousness.

    You are giving up your self/your flesh/your choice and giving your will and life to god.

    Is that wrong?
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    The forces werent evil (because they come from god) through the people. Yet, when people do it on their own (astrology, divination), it is wrong. It depend on the person and intent not the "magic" itself.
     
  16. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Well then, let me ask you this:
    Those magic-practicing priests of Pharaoh (in Exodus 7), whose staffs turned into snakes....were they working against Moses’ God, or for Him?

    I think you’ll agree, it was against Jehovah, ie., Moses’ God. So the power behind those forces, which turned their staffs into snakes, wasn’t from Jehovah!

    Did Pharaoh worship Jehovah? No. According to history, Egypt’s main gods were Horus, Isis, and Osiris. (Interesting that it was a Trinity.)

    The Bible reveals a spirit entity working against Jehovah. This entity is a person....Jesus highlighted him at John 8:44. And the parallel accounts of Matthew 4 & Luke 4.

    A lot more is disclosed about him in other Scriptures.

    Always at work against God.

    Take care.
     
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  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    Yes. I would need to know what god is (noun) before you explain who god is (adjectives and pronouns).

    If jesus is not god, I dont see the representation. Its strict black and white, one human and the other god.

    Yes. But you cant explain what a god is, so where do we start?

    Can you explain what an angel is?

    What is the foudation before I find sense and point in what you are describing. (I read it but cant refer any meaning behind it)

    True. The analogy make sense, but I cant find meaning behind it.

    Not accept, just be respectful.

    I did have JW friends ask me about my faith. I discussed it. They wanted to know about it (for evantalizing). The other saw me waiting at a bus stop. She asked what I believed. I told her. She said, can you tell me more about it. I knew the purpose of their questions, but their intent didnt matter because they were respectful.

    It wasnt religious nor accepting. People have different personalities. Ive heard sermons that denominzed marriage between two men. I heard in Mass, the priest talked about the sacredness of marriage between male and female. I disagree with both, but the latter was easier to listen to. That I liked.

    Hm? No. It just means those grieving have an easier means to talk with their loved ones, the spirits, be protected, and find spiritual comfort. When your emotions arent sensitive, you have your guard up. Then you cant commune. Too much blockage.

    ...

    Oh. Sure. Some people believe that the position and type of numbers can tell the future or life of a said thing or event. For example, two can mean passion and if one sees the number two, they may find a sing passion will come their way. Its the most I can come of it. I dont know much. I do know it isnt scriptural, just something my brother picked up.

    Numerology

    I dont think its that extravegant. There is a lot more to the story; but, Im sure the bible is helping him know what god says and doesnt say about a given topic. Its very very misunderstood. A lot of mystical stuff are. Like any contraversal topic, I notice its more of lack of education and tradition than anything else.
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    I think we agree?
    They worked against god. It wasnt from Jehovah. My point is because it wasnt from god, it was evil. Those coming from god, say through moses, are not. Both are "magic". Depends on the source not the magic itself.

    Yes. Like the spirit you spoke about in the first quote with the priests of Pharaoh.

    Do you agree that it depends on the person which determines the moral nature of the spirit (evil or good) not the magic itself, or is magic evil regardless if it is is used through a prophet of god or performed by a priest?
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The Commandments are not "voluntary", plus the tithes simply were not just for the Levites as the other Commandments on this indicate.

    Logically, based on what we read in the gospels and what we see happening later, there was the expectation that the Church would help those in need and that this did not apply for the Levites, plus I previously quoted a verse that shows that donations were sent to the Church in Jerusalem from the diasporah, so there should be no doubt whatsoever that the Church as a whole was involved.

    It is important for Christians to realize that the early and later Church simply did not take the "just do your own thing"-approach, and the fact that the Church was organizing in other areas as well is found throughout the gospels and epistles. Sometimes I think that the American emphasis on individualism taints how we view how early Christianity operated, especially since it was a spin-off of Judaism and based in large part as a by-product of the Commandments.

    IOW, Jesus, the apostles, and the disciples back then were not individualistically-minded Americans.

    Anyhow, have a Very Merry Christmas as I need to move on.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    It was Not God's influence, but that ' snake-in-the-grass ' Satan who introduced sin in Eden.
    Satan told the first lie that they would Not die.
    Scripture does Not say how long Satan worked on Eve.
    Eve knew it was wrong to eat from the forbidden tree as she told serpent Satan it was wrong.
    Little by little Satan could have drawn her out to convince Eve to break God's Law.
    Eve could have observed animals and perhaps even the serpent eating the fruit and not dying.
    The fruit was Not poisoned, rather it was the breaking of God's Law that was lethal.

    Jesus was Not self righteous but was self sacrificing. There is a BIG difference.
    We are the clay and God is the Potter.
    If we are soft clay we are malleable in The Great Potter's hands.
    We can be fashioned into a vessel of honor. We can be upright and righteous, Not self righteous.
    If we harden oneself, then The Great Potter can't fashion us into something useful.
    The hardened or haughty person is the selfish or self righteous person Not allowing The Great Potter to influence.
    To me, it is Not giving up one's will, but rather freely using one's will to serve God as Jesus and Job did.
     
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