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Canadian Imam Says Apostasy Is a Capital Crime

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Please read the OP again. This is not about terrorism. "Terrorism" is a red-herring. This is about the values of the rank and file Muslims.
The "rank and file" Muslims are not uniform on much of anything, but there is a gulf between Muslims here in the U.S. versus those in the Old World on some issues, including how to deal with "infidels". Those here when polled are much more willing to let people go their own way.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
This is a Canadian Muslim preacher clearly saying that apostasy is punishable by death in Islam:


When are more people, especially the more die-hard apologists for Islam on the left, going to acknowledge that people like this imam are far from being a tiny, fringe minority among some significant Muslim communities and that something needs to be done—not necessarily with respect to immigration laws but at least with respect to the way discourse about Islam is handled?

This is not an imam suffering from poverty in a third-world country saying this; he's in Canada, enjoying liberal freedoms in a first-world country. The idea that such hateful beliefs necessarily stem from poverty or life in countries with poor education crumbles in the face of things like this imam's statements.

One of the things that I find most disturbing about the popularity of this belief in some Muslim communities is that I don't hear nearly as much said about it from the left as I hear about Trump, Milo Yiannopoulos, etc. Take the very worst thing Trump has said and ask yourself this: is saying that people who leave Islam should be killed much or any better than said belief? This is basically like saying that people who, say, denounce Republican views should be put to death. How would that go over if a Republican came right out and said it?

Worse yet, when people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, etc., do speak about things like these and criticize them, someone on the left always dismisses them as "Islamophobic." I've posted on the forum before about the SPLC's classification of Ayaan Hirsi and Maajid Nawaz as "anti-Muslim extremists."

This whole situation is beyond unfortunate. I'm not sure what could be done about it at this point. Trump and the right wing certainly don't have the answer with their current hyperbole about "terrorist threats" and banning immigration from certain countries, but the left doesn't seem to have the answer either, at least not at this juncture.

Terrorists are indeed an extremely small minority among Muslim communities. People with fundamentally dangerous, harmful beliefs like this imam aren't, however, as the polls I linked indicate, and it seems to me that either their existence will be used to scapegoat moderate Muslims (such as by banning their immigration to the U.S.) or it will be slighted and brushed aside by apologists until the problem festers due to the lack of clear, realistic debate about such beliefs.
It's only in religious war as betraying.

In Sirah Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and Sahaba did not made that with many people,whom left Islam.

I guess some Imams should study Islam before they talk.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The "rank and file" Muslims are not uniform on much of anything, but there is a gulf between Muslims here in the U.S. versus those in the Old World on some issues, including how to deal with "infidels". Those here when polled are much more willing to let people go their own way.

more on the "rank and file" perspective: in a recent poll of Muslims living in the UK, over 50% think homosexuality should be considered a crime. here's one link, many can be found:

Ban homosexuality, 52% of British Muslims say in poll - CNN.com
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
This is a Canadian Muslim preacher clearly saying that apostasy is punishable by death in Islam:
This is one of those rare times I do support limiting speech. Such barbarism is not a part of our culture, and it stands against everything we stand for. I hope the Canadian government makes it clear such ways will never be the way in Canada, and drops the hammer of justice very hard on anyone who tries to promote or act out on such a thing.
I am from the left and a reformed Islamic apologist. In college, I looked for every reason to give them a pass at every turn. It was not until the last year or two I took a more critical look. It is thanks to critical threads like this that have allowed me to look at it this way. Thanks for that. :)
LOL! I was at my work shift a couple weeks ago (university library), and I saw a Muslim girl from Saudi Arabia, and upon seeing her completely covered (she often even wears sun glasses inside during the day to cover her eyes) and the subject of the paper I was working on become focused on the religious subjugation of women.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
more on the "rank and file" perspective: in a recent poll of Muslims living in the UK, over 50% think homosexuality should be considered a crime. here's one link, many can be found:

Ban homosexuality, 52% of British Muslims say in poll - CNN.com
It would be nice to know how many Christians feel this way. I suspect it would be much higher in America, but overall I feel it does more harm than good to single out Islam as bad while not acknowledging the fact Christians tend to agree on many things, and if they personally don't the Bible and the Quran are in far greater congruency than what many people want to acknowledge. They may have some different stories and add some extra characters, but overall neither the Bible or Quran promote ideals that we today think of moral; to the contrary they both frequently instruct things we would consider criminal, and if we replace god with a human face there would be no excuses or mercy for them.
"Abrahamics" seems a terribly over generalized word, but truthfully we are fighting against Conservative Christianity as well as Conservative Islam. They are both destructive, they both should be fiercely resisted, they both need to go. The one main difference is Islam is pumping out far more "extreme" Conservatives who take up the cause of violence and murder.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Don't shoot the messenger! Why are people condemning this man for just stating a fact?

Did you really listen to what the Imam said? He didn't advocate death for apostacy. He merely reported that in an Islamic state this is the penalty. I assume there's some scripture somewhere this is based on.

... and since he's an imam who obviously believes strongly in the version of Islam that promotes this teaching, he at the very least implicitly condones the penalty. It says something that there are many Muslims who don't share his view despite living in conservative Muslim-majority countries while he believes this while living in Canada. I think he's a dyed-in-the-wool religious bigot.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OK. Here is the Bible's penalty for apostasy, or incitement to apostasy, From Deuteronomy 13:
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Are you going to condemn me, or call me mad for reporting a distasteful fact? This is the Christian Bible, saying essentially the same thing the Imam is saying.
Debate Slayer, for one, would have this post legally prohibited (post 44) and, presumably, Deuteronomy as well.
dunno.gif
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
OK. Here is the Bible's penalty for apostasy, or incitement to apostasy, From Deuteronomy 13:

Are you going to condemn me, or call me mad for reporting a distasteful fact? This is the Christian Bible, saying essentially the same thing the Imam is saying.

Since you're not a Christian and don't believe in Deuteronomy, no, I'm not going to condemn you. But if you became a priest and preached Christianity while saying that it taught that about apostasy—meaning that you did believe in that punishment—I would definitely condemn you and your belief.

Debate Slayer, for one, would have this post legally prohibited (post 44) and, presumably, Deuteronomy as well.
dunno.gif

I didn't say that, and post #44 isn't mine.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Indeed. It's pretty hard to promote a religion as one of peace while calling for the killing of those who would dare to leave it.

The saddest part though @Debater Slayer is that this is not a "fringe" view in the Muslim world. While maybe not mainstream, it is certainly one that has a fair amount of support. Living in Egypt, what is your response? A Muslims in Egypt pretty easy going on the point of people leaving Islam. How about marginalization, shunning, etc for those who dare to leave Islam?

My response, as briefly as I can put it, is that the polls showing that the belief in the death penalty for apostasy is widespread in Egypt doesn't surprise me. Everything I've heard, read, and experienced first-hand indicates to me that being open about being an atheist would result in shunning, discrimination, and, most likely, risk to a deconvert's physical safety, especially if he or she voiced strong criticism of religion.

There are Muslims who accept ex-Muslims (two of my closest friends are devout Muslims), but the majority don't, from what I've seen, hence my lack of surprise at the poll results.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
This is a Canadian Muslim preacher clearly saying that apostasy is punishable by death in Islam:


When are more people, especially the more die-hard apologists for Islam on the left, going to acknowledge that people like this imam are far from being a tiny, fringe minority among some significant Muslim communities and that something needs to be done—not necessarily with respect to immigration laws but at least with respect to the way discourse about Islam is handled?

This is not an imam suffering from poverty in a third-world country saying this; he's in Canada, enjoying liberal freedoms in a first-world country. The idea that such hateful beliefs necessarily stem from poverty or life in countries with poor education crumbles in the face of things like this imam's statements.

One of the things that I find most disturbing about the popularity of this belief in some Muslim communities is that I don't hear nearly as much said about it from the left as I hear about Trump, Milo Yiannopoulos, etc. Take the very worst thing Trump has said and ask yourself this: is saying that people who leave Islam should be killed much or any better than said belief? This is basically like saying that people who, say, denounce Republican views should be put to death. How would that go over if a Republican came right out and said it?

Worse yet, when people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, etc., do speak about things like these and criticize them, someone on the left always dismisses them as "Islamophobic." I've posted on the forum before about the SPLC's classification of Ayaan Hirsi and Maajid Nawaz as "anti-Muslim extremists."

This whole situation is beyond unfortunate. I'm not sure what could be done about it at this point. Trump and the right wing certainly don't have the answer with their current hyperbole about "terrorist threats" and banning immigration from certain countries, but the left doesn't seem to have the answer either, at least not at this juncture.

Terrorists are indeed an extremely small minority among Muslim communities. People with fundamentally dangerous, harmful beliefs like this imam aren't, however, as the polls I linked indicate, and it seems to me that either their existence will be used to scapegoat moderate Muslims (such as by banning their immigration to the U.S.) or it will be slighted and brushed aside by apologists until the problem festers due to the lack of clear, realistic debate about such beliefs.

1. This guy doesnt know what he is talking about, though I havent listened to the full lecture.
2. Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. Thus this is going against the Quran.
3. I accept many Muslims do hold this belief, but also there are many Muslims who dont.
4. He is using logic, not true scriptural proof.
5. Tyrannical beliefs dont come only through poverty. It also stems from bigotry and hateful society.
6. The smallest society is the family
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
... and since he's an imam who obviously believes strongly in the version of Islam that promotes this teaching, he at the very least implicitly condones the penalty.
I do hope there are plenty of Muslims in Canada who have the good senses to renounce such a claim. And hopefully they are very loud about it and vocal about it. It is, after all, their religion that is having its image painted, and Imams such as those in the OP are not painting a flattering image.
Are you going to condemn me, or call me mad for reporting a distasteful fact? This is the Christian Bible, saying essentially the same thing the Imam is saying.
Exactly! Even Jesus said to kill those who don't him to reign over them. The Bible has a Messiah, the Quran has another Prophet. Other than that when it comes to the treatment of others and laws to govern the lives of others they are far more similar than alike. Islam may have improved in regards to how adherents are to relate to other animals and the environment, but we still find the same terrible relations to other people, such as towards those of another religion and especially towards those perceived to have corrupted/tainted "God's word."
D'oh! -- you're right. My apologies. It's Shadow Wolf that would limit such freedom of speech.
Yes. I draw the line at explicit calls for violence and discrimination. Voice your hate (a necessary evil for the long term good, I believe), but once you advocate and call for violence you are done.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member

Yes. I draw the line at explicit calls for violence and discrimination. Voice your hate (a necessary evil for the long term good, I believe), but once you advocate and call for violence you are done.
You'd ban the Bible?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
You'd ban the Bible?
I would promote social policy that is not conducive towards the spreading of religion. Not a hostility, but the ideal goal is not one citizen would be dumbed down enough to proclaim evolution is "just a theory."
 

MD

qualiaphile
This is a Canadian Muslim preacher clearly saying that apostasy is punishable by death in Islam:


When are more people, especially the more die-hard apologists for Islam on the left, going to acknowledge that people like this imam are far from being a tiny, fringe minority among some significant Muslim communities and that something needs to be done—not necessarily with respect to immigration laws but at least with respect to the way discourse about Islam is handled?

This is not an imam suffering from poverty in a third-world country saying this; he's in Canada, enjoying liberal freedoms in a first-world country. The idea that such hateful beliefs necessarily stem from poverty or life in countries with poor education crumbles in the face of things like this imam's statements.

One of the things that I find most disturbing about the popularity of this belief in some Muslim communities is that I don't hear nearly as much said about it from the left as I hear about Trump, Milo Yiannopoulos, etc. Take the very worst thing Trump has said and ask yourself this: is saying that people who leave Islam should be killed much or any better than said belief? This is basically like saying that people who, say, denounce Republican views should be put to death. How would that go over if a Republican came right out and said it?

Worse yet, when people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, etc., do speak about things like these and criticize them, someone on the left always dismisses them as "Islamophobic." I've posted on the forum before about the SPLC's classification of Ayaan Hirsi and Maajid Nawaz as "anti-Muslim extremists."

This whole situation is beyond unfortunate. I'm not sure what could be done about it at this point. Trump and the right wing certainly don't have the answer with their current hyperbole about "terrorist threats" and banning immigration from certain countries, but the left doesn't seem to have the answer either, at least not at this juncture.

Terrorists are indeed an extremely small minority among Muslim communities. People with fundamentally dangerous, harmful beliefs like this imam aren't, however, as the polls I linked indicate, and it seems to me that either their existence will be used to scapegoat moderate Muslims (such as by banning their immigration to the U.S.) or it will be slighted and brushed aside by apologists until the problem festers due to the lack of clear, realistic debate about such beliefs.

Liberals are pro Islamist, there are anti blasphemy motions being passed in Canada. Welcome to the future DS, I told you the Left will throw you under the bus as fast as the Right will. They're both ****.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
It's only in religious war as betraying.

In Sirah Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and Sahaba did not made that with many people,whom left Islam.

I guess some Imams should study Islam before they talk.

I believe it is worse than that. The Imam is doing the work of the devil who seeks to steal, kill and destroy. It is the mark of a person influenced by an evil spirit.
 
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