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Canadian Imam Says Apostasy Is a Capital Crime

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
This is a Canadian Muslim preacher clearly saying that apostasy is punishable by death in Islam:


When are more people, especially the more die-hard apologists for Islam on the left, going to acknowledge that people like this imam are far from being a tiny, fringe minority among some significant Muslim communities and that something needs to be done—not necessarily with respect to immigration laws but at least with respect to the way discourse about Islam is handled?

This is not an imam suffering from poverty in a third-world country saying this; he's in Canada, enjoying liberal freedoms in a first-world country. The idea that such hateful beliefs necessarily stem from poverty or life in countries with poor education crumbles in the face of things like this imam's statements.

One of the things that I find most disturbing about the popularity of this belief in some Muslim communities is that I don't hear nearly as much said about it from the left as I hear about Trump, Milo Yiannopoulos, etc. Take the very worst thing Trump has said and ask yourself this: is saying that people who leave Islam should be killed much or any better than said belief? This is basically like saying that people who, say, denounce Republican views should be put to death. How would that go over if a Republican came right out and said it?

Worse yet, when people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, etc., do speak about things like these and criticize them, someone on the left always dismisses them as "Islamophobic." I've posted on the forum before about the SPLC's classification of Ayaan Hirsi and Maajid Nawaz as "anti-Muslim extremists."

This whole situation is beyond unfortunate. I'm not sure what could be done about it at this point. Trump and the right wing certainly don't have the answer with their current hyperbole about "terrorist threats" and banning immigration from certain countries, but the left doesn't seem to have the answer either, at least not at this juncture.

Terrorists are indeed an extremely small minority among Muslim communities. People with fundamentally dangerous, harmful beliefs like this imam aren't, however, as the polls I linked indicate, and it seems to me that either their existence will be used to scapegoat moderate Muslims (such as by banning their immigration to the U.S.) or it will be slighted and brushed aside by apologists until the problem festers due to the lack of clear, realistic debate about such beliefs.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I'm from the left and think this sort of stuff is despicable.
He should be made to sit amongst women.

The Muslim apologetics is one of the reasons that nut jobs on the right at the moment have all the power.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
From Wiki...

There have been
fatwas which forbid the free mixing between men and women (known as Ikhtilat (Arabic: اختلاط)), especially when alone. The stated intention of all restrictions is to keep interaction at a small and modest level. Islamic jurisprudent laws have traditionally ruled that Muslim men and women who are not intermediate relatives may not, for instance, socialize in order to know each other with a handshake (for any reason) and any form of contact which involves physical contact, and even verbal contact to a certain extent. A number of westernized Muslim intellectuals have challenged this ruling and claim certain physical contact to be permissible as long as there is no obscenity, inappropriate touching (other than a simple handshake), secret meetings or flirting, according to the general rules of interaction between the genders
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
From Wiki...

There have been
fatwas which forbid the free mixing between men and women (known as Ikhtilat (Arabic: اختلاط)), especially when alone. The stated intention of all restrictions is to keep interaction at a small and modest level. Islamic jurisprudent laws have traditionally ruled that Muslim men and women who are not intermediate relatives may not, for instance, socialize in order to know each other with a handshake (for any reason) and any form of contact which involves physical contact, and even verbal contact to a certain extent. A number of westernized Muslim intellectuals have challenged this ruling and claim certain physical contact to be permissible as long as there is no obscenity, inappropriate touching (other than a simple handshake), secret meetings or flirting, according to the general rules of interaction between the genders

I know the above rule; just wasn't sure what you were getting at.

Being forced to sit with women would probably be more painful for them than for him, though. No need to inflict that suffering on anyone. :p
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm from the left and think this sort of stuff is despicable.
He should be made to sit amongst women.

The Muslim apologetics is one of the reasons that nut jobs on the right at the moment have all the power.
Or given a new job at a factory....
th
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Like within all religions, there's a variability of beliefs and practices, therefore it's not only possible to differentiate those within any religion, it's necessary, imo. But we have to be careful with our labeling.

For example, we hear and read a lot about "Islamic terrorist" in the media here in the States, but yet we almost never hear or read "Christian terrorist" [or more specifically words like "Baptist terrorist" or "Catholic terrorist" or...]. Are there such people with them that could be labeled as such? Of course. So since there is, then why doesn't the media here use these words?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Being forced to sit with women would probably be more painful for them than for him, though. No need to inflict that suffering on anyone. :p
Oh, I don't know. I know a few ladies who would be up for it, but make sure it is well filmed and posted on YouTube
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
I am from the left and a reformed Islamic apologist. In college, I looked for every reason to give them a pass at every turn. It was not until the last year or two I took a more critical look. It is thanks to critical threads like this that have allowed me to look at it this way. Thanks for that. :)
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is a Canadian Muslim preacher clearly saying that apostasy is punishable by death in Islam:


When are more people, especially the more die-hard apologists for Islam on the left, going to acknowledge that people like this imam are far from being a tiny, fringe minority among some significant Muslim communities and that something needs to be done—not necessarily with respect to immigration laws but at least with respect to the way discourse about Islam is handled?

This is not an imam suffering from poverty in a third-world country saying this; he's in Canada, enjoying liberal freedoms in a first-world country. The idea that such hateful beliefs necessarily stem from poverty or life in countries with poor education crumbles in the face of things like this imam's statements.

One of the things that I find most disturbing about the popularity of this belief in some Muslim communities is that I don't hear nearly as much said about it from the left as I hear about Trump, Milo Yiannopoulos, etc. Take the very worst thing Trump has said and ask yourself this: is saying that people who leave Islam should be killed much or any better than said belief? This is basically like saying that people who, say, denounce Republican views should be put to death. How would that go over if a Republican came right out and said it?

Worse yet, when people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, etc., do speak about things like these and criticize them, someone on the left always dismisses them as "Islamophobic." I've posted on the forum before about the SPLC's classification of Ayaan Hirsi and Maajid Nawaz as "anti-Muslim extremists."

This whole situation is beyond unfortunate. I'm not sure what could be done about it at this point. Trump and the right wing certainly don't have the answer with their current hyperbole about "terrorist threats" and banning immigration from certain countries, but the left doesn't seem to have the answer either, at least not at this juncture.

Terrorists are indeed an extremely small minority among Muslim communities. People with fundamentally dangerous, harmful beliefs like this imam aren't, however, as the polls I linked indicate, and it seems to me that either their existence will be used to scapegoat moderate Muslims (such as by banning their immigration to the U.S.) or it will be slighted and brushed aside by apologists until the problem festers due to the lack of clear, realistic debate about such beliefs.

Another individual so insecure in his faith that he thinks anyone who wants to leave it should be murdered. This crap has got to stop. If someone remains in a religion because he or she will be killed if they leave it,, are they really that religion? I think not. A much better plan for them would be to let each person freely choose to stay or go as their conscience dictates with no threats of violence from little males (cannot bring myself to call one such as him a man) such as this. Let it be between them and God. People who stay in a religion of their own free will would be much better representatives than those in a religion due to threats don't you think.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Like within all religions, there's a variability of beliefs and practices, therefore it's not only possible to differentiate those within any religion, it's necessary, imo. But we have to be careful with our labeling.

For example, we hear and read a lot about "Islamic terrorist" in the media here in the States, but yet we almost never hear or read "Christian terrorist" [or more specifically words like "Baptist terrorist" or "Catholic terrorist" or...]. Are there such people with them that could be labeled as such? Of course. So since there is, then why doesn't the media here use these words?
Jewish terrorist? Buddhist terrorist?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Like within all religions, there's a variability of beliefs and practices, therefore it's not only possible to differentiate those within any religion, it's necessary, imo. But we have to be careful with our labeling.

For example, we hear and read a lot about "Islamic terrorist" in the media here in the States, but yet we almost never hear or read "Christian terrorist" [or more specifically words like "Baptist terrorist" or "Catholic terrorist" or...]. Are there such people with them that could be labeled as such? Of course. So since there is, then why doesn't the media here use these words?

Bigots tend to have a habit of picking others' faults painstakingly while overlooking their own. It's why some fundamentalist Christians will look at Muslim extremists with the Bible in one hand and a cross in the other and condemn Islamic extremism... but then turn around and support platforms that are basically aimed at turning the U.S. into a Christian theocracy.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
This is a Canadian Muslim preacher clearly saying that apostasy is punishable by death in Islam:


When are more people, especially the more die-hard apologists for Islam on the left, going to acknowledge that people like this imam are far from being a tiny, fringe minority among some significant Muslim communities and that something needs to be done—not necessarily with respect to immigration laws but at least with respect to the way discourse about Islam is handled?

This is not an imam suffering from poverty in a third-world country saying this; he's in Canada, enjoying liberal freedoms in a first-world country. The idea that such hateful beliefs necessarily stem from poverty or life in countries with poor education crumbles in the face of things like this imam's statements.

One of the things that I find most disturbing about the popularity of this belief in some Muslim communities is that I don't hear nearly as much said about it from the left as I hear about Trump, Milo Yiannopoulos, etc. Take the very worst thing Trump has said and ask yourself this: is saying that people who leave Islam should be killed much or any better than said belief? This is basically like saying that people who, say, denounce Republican views should be put to death. How would that go over if a Republican came right out and said it?

Worse yet, when people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, etc., do speak about things like these and criticize them, someone on the left always dismisses them as "Islamophobic." I've posted on the forum before about the SPLC's classification of Ayaan Hirsi and Maajid Nawaz as "anti-Muslim extremists."

This whole situation is beyond unfortunate. I'm not sure what could be done about it at this point. Trump and the right wing certainly don't have the answer with their current hyperbole about "terrorist threats" and banning immigration from certain countries, but the left doesn't seem to have the answer either, at least not at this juncture.

Terrorists are indeed an extremely small minority among Muslim communities. People with fundamentally dangerous, harmful beliefs like this imam aren't, however, as the polls I linked indicate, and it seems to me that either their existence will be used to scapegoat moderate Muslims (such as by banning their immigration to the U.S.) or it will be slighted and brushed aside by apologists until the problem festers due to the lack of clear, realistic debate about such beliefs.
Indeed. It's pretty hard to promote a religion as one of peace while calling for the killing of those who would dare to leave it.

The saddest part though @Debater Slayer is that this is not a "fringe" view in the Muslim world. While maybe not mainstream, it is certainly one that has a fair amount of support. Living in Egypt, what is your response? A Muslims in Egypt pretty easy going on the point of people leaving Islam. How about marginalization, shunning, etc for those who dare to leave Islam?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I am from the left and a reformed Islamic apologist. In college, I looked for every reason to give them a pass at every turn. It was not until the last year or two I took a more critical look. It is thanks to critical threads like this that have allowed me to look at it this way. Thanks for that. :)

I think one of the main problems is conflation between defending Muslims' rights as well as freedoms like everyone else's and defending their beliefs regardless of what they are. There's no logical contradiction in calling out people like this imam for their harmful beliefs while affording them full freedoms, including the freedom to argue for their position. It is when false equivalences start to occur that beliefs like these and denial of freedoms both thrive.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
BTW, I was at an interfaith conference a couple of years ago, and near the end of the program we broke off into groups whereas I ended up sitting at a table with around 6 or 7 others largely from different faiths, and the person who I was the closest to in our discussions was an imam.

The above and $5 can get you a coffee at Starbucks, btw.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
BTW, I was at an interfaith conference a couple of years ago, and near the end of the program we broke off into groups whereas I ended up sitting at a table with around 6 or 7 others largely from different faiths, and the person who I was the closest to in our discussions was an imam.

The above and $5 can get you a coffee at Starbucks, btw.

Did the imam talk about killing anybody?
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
BTW, I was at an interfaith conference a couple of years ago, and near the end of the program we broke off into groups whereas I ended up sitting at a table with around 6 or 7 others largely from different faiths, and the person who I was the closest to in our discussions was an imam.

The above and $5 can get you a coffee at Starbucks, btw.

I would have loved to have been there. I think such interfaith dialogue is the answer going forward. Having a friendly conversation with a fellow human from a different faith makes it difficult to view them as the alien outsider.
 
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