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Can you invision a world with out money

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Crosis, Aug 2, 2010.

  1. Crosis

    Crosis Member

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    To transcend these limitations, we must work toward a worldwide, resource-based economy, in which the planetary resources are held as the common heritage of all the earth's inhabitants. The current practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant, counter-productive, and falls far short of meeting humanity’s needs.
    Simply stated, a resource-based economy utilizes existing resources - rather than money - to provide an equitable method of distribution in the most humane and efficient manner. It is a system in which all goods and services are available to everyone without the use of money, credits, barter, or any other form of debt or servitude.
    To better understand a resource-based economy, consider this. If all the money in the world disappeared overnight, as long as topsoil, factories, personnel and other resources were left intact, we could build anything we needed to fulfill most human needs. It is not money that people require, but rather free access to most of their needs without worrying about financial security or having to appeal to a government bureaucracy. In a resource-based economy of abundance, money will become irrelevant.
    We have arrived at a time when new innovations in science and technology can easily provide abundance to all of the world’s people. It is no longer necessary to perpetuate the conscious withdrawal of efficiency by planned obsolescence, perpetuated by our old and outworn profit system. If we are genuinely concerned about the environment and our fellow human beings, if we really want to end territorial disputes, war, crime, poverty and hunger, we must consciously reconsider the social processes that led us to a world where these factors are common. Like it or not, it is our social processes – political practices, belief systems, profit-based economy, our culture-driven behavioral norms – that lead to and support hunger, war, disease and environmental damage.
    The aim of this new social design is to encourage an incentive system no longer directed toward the shallow and self-centered goals of wealth, property, and power. These new incentives would encourage people toward self-fulfillment and creativity, both materially and spiritually.

    Now the problems with money

    There are many disadvantages to using this old method of exchange for goods and services. We will consider just a few here and let you add to this list on your own.
    1. Money is just an interference between what one needs and what one is able to get. It is not money that people need, it is access to resources.
    2. The use of money results in social stratification and elitism based primarily on economic disparity.
    3. People are not equal without equal purchasing power.
    4. Most people are slaves to jobs they do not like because they need the money.
    5. There is tremendous corruption, greed, crime, embezzlement, and more caused by the need for money.
    6. Most laws are enacted for the benefit of corporations, which have enough money to lobby, bribe, or persuade government officials to make laws that serve their interests.
    7. Those who control purchasing power have greater influence.
    8. Money is used to control the behavior of those with limited purchasing power.
    9. Goods such as foods are sometimes destroyed to keep prices up; when things are scarce prices increase.
    10. There is tremendous waste of material and strain on available resources from superficial design changes for the newest and latest fads each year in order to create continuous markets for manufacturers.
    11. There is tremendous environmental degradation due to the high cost of better methods of waste disposal.
    12. The Earth is being plundered for profit.
    13. The benefits of technology are only distributed to those with sufficient purchasing power.
    14. Most important, when the corporation’s bottom line is profit, decisions in all areas are made not for the benefit of people and the environment, but primarily for the acquisition of wealth, property, and power.

    writen by Jacque Fresco
     
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  2. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    A world without money would be VERY cumbersome.

    I'm a teacher. It would be very difficult if I had to travel all over the place, teaching every grocery store owner something that he himself finds useful, just so I could buy a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk. And what if no grocery store owner actually wanted to be taught?

    Much better to teach those who want to be taught in exchange for something that is recognized as a medium of exchange, instead of a good itself.
     
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  3. tumbleweed41

    tumbleweed41 Resident Liberal Hippie

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    Barter and trade become inefficient beyond the small city/state.
     
  4. Cypress

    Cypress Dragon Mom

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    I like the idea of a society without money, I just do not see how this should work in practice.
     
  5. angellous_evangellous

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    Star Trek
     
  6. Crosis

    Crosis Member

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    not very different than from now just no money it si not money you it is resources you need money is scam now to enslave you. the monatary system must produce faliures if every one was sucessfull who would do the dirty work.

    To understand the mechanics of the monetary system we should have a clear picture of the dynamics of the system.

    Consider the following:-

    Let the Initial Deposit in a bank = D

    Now, Reserve requirement as per fractional reserve practice = 10% of D
    = 0.1D (As documented in Modern Money Mechanics, page- 7)
    Under current regulations, the reserve requirement
    Against most transaction accounts is 10 percent.

    So, Portion of the deposit that is excess and can be loaned out
    = (100 – 10) % = 90% of D
    = 0.9D

    Now, considering the Initial Deposit to be = 1000$

    The amount that can be loaned out in the 1st step = 0.9 x 1000 = 900$
    Keeping 100$ as reserve.

    The amount that can be loaned out in the 2nd step = 0.9 x 900 = 810$
    Keeping 90$ as reserve.

    The amount that can be loaned out in the 3rd step = 0.9 x 810 = 729$
    Keeping 81$ as reserve.

    And the process repeats until the amount which is remaining becomes reasonably close to zero (It can never be exactly equal to zero as that would require an infinite number of steps)

    The above process can be formulated as below:-

    Considering the residual amount = 0.01D (1% of Initial Deposit)

    D x 0.9^N = 0.01D where N = No. of steps required to satisfy the given condition

    0.9^N = 0.01

    N = 43.709 = 44 times (Approximately).

    So, we see that in the Fractional Reserve Banking System a certain deposit can be loaned out approximately 44 times before it reduces to an amount which is 1% of the Initial Deposit.

    How much money is created in the process?

    Now, based on the Fractional Reserve Banking System, the Banks do not deduct the amount loaned out from its accounts (if it did then the banks wouldn’t have created any money at all). So in every such step money is virtually created out of thin air which in turn inflates the amount of money initially deposited.

    Note: Of course, they do not really pay out loans from the money they
    Receive as deposits. If they did this, no additional money would be created. What they do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the Borrowers' transaction accounts (MODERN MONEY MECHANICS, pg – 7)

    Let’s check out the dynamics of the money creation process:-


    In the 1st step the amount of money in the economy = 1000$

    In the 2nd step the amount of money in the economy = 1000$ + 0.9 x 1000$ = 1900$

    In the 3rd step the amount of money in the economy = 1000$ + 0.9 x 1000$ + 0.9^2 x 1000 = 2710$ and so on……….

    The process can be formulated as below:-

    Total money in the Economy (T) = 1000 x 0.9^0 + 1000 x 0.9^1 + 1000 x 0.9^2 + 1000 x 0.9^3 +………………..+ 1000 x 0.9^44




    Symbolically:-

    T = D + 0.9D + 0.9^2 x D + 0.9^3 x D + 0.9^4 x D +
    +…………. + 0.9^44 x D

    T = D (0.9^0+ 0.9^1 + 0.9^2 + 0.9^3 + ………………………..+ 0.9^44)

    We can easily identify that it’s a Geometric series

    So we can write:-

    T = D (1- r ^ n)/ (1-r)

    Therefore the general equation of the
    Money Multiplier = (1 – r ^n) / (1 – r)
    Where; r = factor for excess reserve and n = Number of steps

    Now, r = 0.9 and n = (44 + 1) = 45 in this case.

    T = ((1 – 0.9 ^ 45)/(1 – 0.9)) x D = 9.912 D
    = 10D (Approximately)

    Virtual Money created in the process = 10D – D = 9D where; D= Initial Deposit.


    So we see that FOR EVERY DEPOSIT IN THIS SYSTEM 9 TIMES IT’S VALUE CAN BE CREATED OUT OF THIN AIR.

    Now regarding the application of INTEREST and to completely understand the FRAUDULANT nature of this whole system lets start a mental exercise considering the amount which has to be paid back in order to clear all the loans in a single chain of alternate lending and borrowing.

    THE MONEY INFILTRATES IN THE ECONOMY AS BELOW:-
    (D) 9.70$ (1% of D)729$……810$ 900$1000$

    Whose Nth term is given by = 1000 x 0.9^ (N – 1)
    = D x 0.9^ (N – 1)


    Now, had there been no interest then the money would have retraced its path destroying the virtual money in every step, as follows:-

    1000$900$810$....................9.70$ ------------ 1

    Now, considering an uniform rate of interest = 2% (which is quite generous)

    The money to be returned back is shown sequentially:-

    1020$918$826.19$9.90$.................... ----------2

    Note: Though it seems that a deposit of 1000$ will create a deficit of only 20$ (2%) in the system but that is not the case. In fact, the deficit in each step of the above example will add up because there is no possibility of it being fulfilled from the very beginning of the contraction process.

    Therefore the total deficit generated in the system
    = 0.02 D x summation of 0.9^ (N -1)
    = 0.02 D x Money Multiplier

    = 0.02D x 10 = 0.2D (Approximately).

    It is interesting to note as the money gets expanded in the system so does the interest on it!!

    Therefore the total shortage of money so generated
    = 1000$ x 0.2 = 200$ (Approximately)

    = 10D x (R/100) = D(R/10)
    WHERE; R = INTEREST RATE

    So there is the mind boggling paradox!! Where will this extra 200$ come from?

    There is no chance of it being created in the process; we are not printing any currency in the system nor does money reproduce like living organisms.
    So who is going to make for up this deficit?

    Now, consider a more detailed exercise

    Let Initial Deposit = D = 1023$

    Let the Population = P = 1023

    So, Money available per Capita = D/P = 1023/1023 = 1$

    Let the Reserve Requirement (R) = 10% of D = 0.1D

    Now for total infiltration of money in the system a person in the system should receive at least 1$. In
    other words the last lent out amount should be equal
    to 1$.

    Consider that in each step the money is getting branched in 2 paths (which is much more realistic than the linear distribution)


    1023$ = 1023$


    460.35$ + 460.35$ = 920.7$


    207.16$ + 207.16$ + 207.16$ + 207.16$ = 828.64$

    .
    .
    .
    .


    And the process repeats

    How many steps can this process run before the residual amount becomes equal to 1$?

    The general equation is:

    1023 x 0.9^ (n – 1) / 2^ (n – 1) = 1

    0.45^ (n – 1) = 1/1023

    n= 9.68 = 9 times ( n is bound to be an integer)

    Therefore the money infiltrates to the 9th step of the distribution process.

    But there are 10 steps in the total distribution process because
    P = 1023 = 2^10 – 1(now you can understand the significance of the population considered)

    Therefore the number of people who received money
    = 2^9 – 1 = 511 persons

    And the number who did not receive any money at all
    = 1023 – 511 = 512 persons

    Therefore the percentage of poverty so generated
    = (512/ 1023) x 100 = 50%

    Therefore we see that a reserve requirement of 10% guarantees a poverty of 50% in the system. That is the money is never going to reach 50% of the lot due to this system.

    If we repeat the exercise with 20%, 30% and 40% Reserve Requirement the consecutive Poverty generated would be 75%, 88% and 94% respectively

    Therefore the GENERAL POVERTY EQUATION is
    = [(2^n – 2^ (n – R/10)) / (2^n -1)] x 100 -------------- (P)

    Where (2^n – 1) represents the total POPULATION in the system.
     
  7. Crosis

    Crosis Member

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    In other words a Reserve Requirement of 10% will ensure only 50% infiltration of the money in the system keeping the remaining 50% away from any money and thereby in poverty.

    (I could have considered Trilateral branching but believe me the situation would be worse and this is the least lethal consideration!!)

    Hey!! The exercise is not over yet!!

    What will happen to those 50% that received the money?

    The money has to be returned back with an interest.

    Let us consider a uniform interest rate
    = 2% (As generous as it can be)

    Now the money that each receive in the 9th step
    = (1023 x 0.9^9) / 2^9 = 0.77$
    Therefore each person has to return back
    = 1.02 x 0.77$ = 0.79$

    But the money in that step is still
    = 1023^0.9^9 =396.33$
    Therefore number of possible returns
    = (396.33 / 0.79) = 501.68 = 501 returns

    So the number of defaulters = 2^9 – 501 = 11 no.

    Therefore total number of subsequent defaulters
    = 8+4+2+1+1+1+1+1+1+
    +2+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+
    +1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 36 no.

    Therefore the percentage of defaulters /debtors/slaves generated by the system due to an interest rate of 2%
    = [36 / (2^9 – 1)] x 100 = 7% (leaving aside the 50% who did not even receive any money in the first place)

    So we can well understand that in order to make up for this deficit the next injection of money will have to be of a higher magnitude than before but that again will create more debt in the system. So it’s a vicious cycle which perpetuates itself and constantly enhances differences and thereby concentrates the money/wealth/resources to the dwellers on the top level of the money chain. It’s like a pumping mechanism which constantly drains out wealth from the lower rungs to the upper rungs of the money chain.

    The banks of our world are not there to distribute wealth it is there to increase differences and to concentrate all the money/wealth/resources into the hands of a very few on the top of the money chain.

    Now considering the present world population
    = 7 billions (App.)

    Or 2^n - 1 = 7 x 10^9

    Or n = 32.70 = 32 (App.)

    Considering R = 10% (which is common for most transactions as documented in Modern Money Mechanics, p-7)

    The Poverty %
    = [(2^32 – 2^ (32 – 10/10)) / (2^32 -1)] x 100
    = 50% (GUARANTED)

    Now we have seen earlier that the distribution of the money in this system can never be uniform. It slowly decays in magnitude as we drift downwards in the money chain.
    So what is the amount of money possessed by the terminal person that is the person on the top of the chain?
    We can easily visualize that it is 10% of the amount injected in the system i.e. 102.3$ say 100$.

    So you can well understand that if the total money in the world were to add up to 7 billion$ which is just equal to the population i.e. 7 billion, then for every 100$ that you possessed, there would be a story of 512 people who didn’t get any money because of you and 32 more who is going to get robbed of everything just because of you!!

    What if you were a millionaire?

    That means (1000000/100) x (512 +32) x q = 5.44q Million people would be suffering for you!
    And a billionaire?

    That means 5440000000q = 5.44q Billion people enslaved and in poverty just because of you.

    So how much personal wealth will be required to enslave the whole world?
    = (7/ 5.44) k Billion $
    Where k = Money / population Ratio.
    = Total base money in the economy / Total Population.
    And q = (1/k) i.e reciprocal of k


    By now we know that an injection of M$ in the economy creates a debt deficit of
    = MR/100 x ((1 – F ^n) / (1- F))
    Where F = Excess reserve factor = 0.9 for a reserve requirement of 10%.

    Money injection required for the next cycle
    = M + MR/100 x ((1 – F ^n) / (1- F))

    = M (1 + R/100 ((1 – F ^n) / (1- F)))

    So the process repeats with the next injection being higher in amount than the previous one

    The general term of this process is:-

    = M (1 + R/100 ((1 – F ^n) / (1- F))) ^T

    Let the Population at Tth instant = P

    So that the Population at any time may be given as

    P = P x f (T)

    Considering (M / P) = 1 at a time T we can find out the corresponding devaluation of the currency at any other time starting from that period by using the following formula:-


    Cost index (C) = (1 + R/100 ((1 – F ^n) / (1- F))) ^T / f (T)


    The salient points to be noted in the above examples are:-

    1) EVERY DEPOSIT IN THIS SYSTEM CAN CREATE 9 TIMES ITS VALUE OF MONEY OUT OF THIN AIR.

    2) EVERY DEPOSIT IN THIS SYSTEM CAN CREATE A MONEY DEFICIT EQUALS TO 10 TIMES THE INITIAL DEPOSIT x (R/100), WHERE R = RATE OF INTEREST CHARGED AGAINST LOAN.

    3) THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF FULFILLING THIS DEFICIT BECAUSE THE ECONOMY DOES NOT CREATE MONEY OR MONEY CANNOT REPRODUCE ITSELF LIKE LIVING ORGANISMS.

    4) THE AMOUNT OF MONEY ENTERING THE SYSTEM = MONEY LEAVING THE SYSTEM, SO EVERY DEPOSIT CREATES A VACCUM OF UNRECOVERED DEBT.

    5) THIS NECESSITATES THE INJECTION OF MORE MONEY IN THE SYSTEM WHICH IN TURN CREATES MORE DEBT.


    6) EACH DEPOSIT IN THIS SYSTEM WOULD REQUIRE A FURTHER INJECTION OF D (1 + R/10) ^N WHERE D= INITIAL DEPOSIT;
    R= RATE OF INTEREST AND N= NUMBER OF INJECTIONS.

    7) AN INCREASE IN THE MONEY SUPPLY REDUCES ITS PURCHASING POWER AND ULTIMATELY INCREASES PRICE OF EVERY COMMODITY.

    8) SO WE CAN WELL UNDERSTAND WHY EVERYTHING IN THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM IS GEOMETRIC IN NATURE.

    9) MONEY IS PURELY A DEBT INSTRUMENT

    10) MONEY = DEBT = SLAVERY
     
  8. Cypress

    Cypress Dragon Mom

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    So when I desire to have a watermelone, I take a stack of cucumbers from my garden and go to the market and seek someone with a watermelon who is willing to change with me?
    What if I have no garden and no cucumbers?
    I live in the city, as many people do.
     
  9. tumbleweed41

    tumbleweed41 Resident Liberal Hippie

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    I am a chef. For what shall I exchange my services for? What will I use to receive the goods I need. What do I exchange with the repairman to get the freezer running again?
    I have to HAVE what he NEEDS/WANTS or the work will not get done.
    As Cyprus alluded to, my supplier may not want my excess cucumbers, but he will always accept cash.
     
  10. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Exactly. I wish the OP would respond to my previous post. I'm a teacher, and lots of people need teachers. But what if all the grocery store owners in my town are old bachelors who don't need teachers at all? What will I possibly provide so that I can buy food? Money is soooo much more convenient.

    Tumbleweed says it really well:
    As Cyprus alluded to, my supplier may not want my excess cucumbers, but he will always accept cash.​
     
  11. Crosis

    Crosis Member

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    Distribution of goods and services without the use of money or tokens would be accomplished by establishing distribution centers. These centers would be similar to expositions, where the advantages of new products are explained and demonstrated. Exhibition centers will display what is new and available and will constantly be updated. If you visited Yellowstone National Park, you could check out a camera or camcorder, use it, and then return it to another distribution center or drop-off, eliminating storage and maintenance.
    Besides computerized centers throughout the communities where products would eventually be displayed, there will be 3-D, flat-screen imaging in each home. If you desire an item, an order can be placed and the item automatically delivered directly to your place of residence without a price tag, servitude, or debt of any kind. This includes whatever people need such as housing, clothing, education, health care, entertainment, etc.
    Raw materials for products can be transported directly to manufacturing facilities by automated transportation "sequences" using boats, monorails, mag-lev trains, pipelines, and pneumatic tubes. An automated, computerized inventory system would integrate the distribution centers and manufacturing facilities, coordinating production to meet demand. In this way, a balanced-load economy can be maintained. Shortages, over-runs, and waste could be eliminated. Eventually goods and services will be mass-produced in such abundance as to be too cheap to monitor.
    Today there is more than 75% waste in the production of material goods. In a resource-based economy, all waste would be recycled. A priority would be designing things of the highest quality so that products would last longer and require little or no service. Many electronic parts will use plug-in components for convenient repair. There would be no planned obsolescence just to sell the latest designs or fashions. This would eliminate considerable waste.
    Energy can also be conserved in the loading and unloading of materials in transport systems. For instance, instead of unloading separate containers, an entire freight section will be disengaged from a cargo ship and replaced with another so that the ship does not waste time at the dock during loading and unloading. The same method can be applied to trains and planes. There will be one compartment for passengers and baggage, which can be disengaged from the plane or train as a new section is loaded, so that the vehicle is more effective and conserves time and energy. All transportation will be operated electrically.
    In a cybernated society, people will have more time for individual interests such as going back to school, working in the arts and sciences, traveling, etc. There will be many choices for exploring, studying, enjoying, and participation.
    Professions that are non contributing, such as banking, insurance, advertising, marketing, sales, the military, lawyers, stockbrokers, etc., will evolve into activities that are more useful.
     
  12. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    What is to keep people from free riding? Because once people realize you can free ride, everybody will.
     
  13. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    Give me one of those Galaxy Class starships with replicators, & I could do very well without money.
     
  14. budha3

    budha3 Member

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    What do you mean; invision, In my world this is a reality.
     
  15. Neo-Logic

    Neo-Logic Reality Checker

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    You complicate a lot of ideas unnecessarily.

    It's possible to exist without money, but we'd have to resort to the more inefficient and draconian methods of bartering and trading, or collectively engage in some total communist/ shared system.

    Money transfers value. The transfer of value allows for all the innovations that we have today as advanced societies specifically because we can specialize and leverage our skills when we rely in the transfer of value that's made possible with currency.
     
  16. Cypress

    Cypress Dragon Mom

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    Money has only symbolic value, otherwise it is just printed paper.
    Could not money be replaced by energy?
    So instead of using a credit card you have a kind of USB stick on which a certain amount of energy is saved, and when you buy something you pay a certain amount of energy?
     
  17. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    But in that case, energy is money. Money is just a good exchanged for other goods, that (in the exchange) has no real value inherently. It's value is in the ability to exchange it.
     
  18. Neo-Logic

    Neo-Logic Reality Checker

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    Why is this a better alternative?

    Let's move your idea from conceptualization to operations. Imagine the learning curve, systemic, and infrastructure changes necessary to accommodate your suggestion.

    There has to be a very compelling reason to justify the switch other than the fact that money has flaws and the symbolic value is subject to leverage and fluid change.
     
  19. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    I don't think he thought it was better - I think he was simply pointing out what money fundamentally is by giving an alternate example.
     
  20. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    I like the idea of a cashless society and the elimination of having to physically handle paper and coin altogether. The idea of acquiring electronic credits sounds intriguing especially when pricing values perpetually rise on goods and services. -NM-
     
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