Can you be both Liberal and Traditional.

[Terrywoodenpic]

I Hold what many in the Anglican/Church Of England would coonsider very Liberal views. At the same time I hold Many other preferences which are towards the Anglo Catholic side of the Church of England. Especially in having the Holy Communion as the centre of worship.

Do other Liberal leaning Christians hold what might be thought of by others as split beliefs?


Terry
_____________________________


Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

 

[GPV]

Interestingly enough, I found a group of people that seem to straddle the world between liberal and orthodox.

Here are the 8 points of liberal/progressive Christianity, then below thise the 8 principles of postmodern Christianity:
http://www.tcpc.org/about/the_8_points_english.html
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. Have found an approach to God through the life and teachings of Jesus;

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. Recognize the faithfulness of other people who have other names for the way to God's realm, and acknowledge that their ways are true for them, as our ways are true for us;[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3. Understand the sharing of bread and wine in Jesus's name to be a representation of an ancient vision of God's feast for all peoples;[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4. Invite all people to participate in our community and worship life without insisting that they become like us in order to be acceptable (including but not limited to):[/font]
[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]believers and agnostics,
conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,
women and men,
those of all sexual orientations and gender identities,
those of all races and cultures,
those of all classes and abilities,
those who hope for a better world and those who have lost hope;

[/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5. Know that the way we behave toward one another and toward other people is the fullest expression of what we believe;

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6. Find more grace in the search for understanding than we do in dogmatic certainty - more value in questioning than in absolutes;[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7. Form ourselves into communities dedicated to equipping one another for the work we feel called to do: striving for peace and justice among all people, protecting and restoring the integrity of all God's creation, and bringing hope to those Jesus called the least of his sisters and brothers; and[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8. Recognize that being followers of Jesus is costly, and entails selfless love, conscientious resistance to evil, and renunciation of privilege.[/font][/font]

Postmodernist Emergent Church principles:
http://www.modernreformation.org/dac05emerging.htm

1. Accept co-existence with different faiths gladly, not begrudgingly. It is not their fault if they are alive.
2. Dialogue presupposes commitment to one’s position, so it is surely not a bad thing to listen well. Dialogue should be congruent with confidence in the gospel.
3. We assume that the dialogue takes place in the presence of God, the unseen Presence. In such dialogue we may learn things, as Peter does in Acts 10–11. Similarly, Jesus learns from his interchange with the Syrophoenician woman.
4. Missional dialogue requires humility and vulnerability. But that should not frighten us, for when we are weak, we are strong. It is surely right, for instance, to acknowledge earlier atrocities committed by Christians, even as we remain careful not to disparage those earlier Christians.
5. Each religion operates in its own world and therefore demands different responses from Christians.
6. Christian witness does not preclude dialogue.
7. The “old, old story” may not be the true, true story, for we continue to grow, and even our discussion and dialogues contribute to such growth. In other words, the questions raised by postmodernism help us to grow.
8. Live with the paradox: we know no way of salvation apart from Jesus Christ, but we do not prejudge what God may do with others. We must simply live with the tension.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

GPV... thanks for that

I have noticed this before. From what I can make out it is a supporting group for people af any Christian background. who hold Ideas with an open mind, that may not be accepted by their own
church. Would you say that I have that right.

Terry
____________________________-
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

 

[michel]

I must admit - that has been one of the main reasons that made me feel unable to commit myself totally to Christianity; I am the type of person who instinctly feels that to belong to a 'club' means accepting every single one of it's rules in full.

To me, I see a light at the end of the tunnel. The idea of accepting the Faith without having to subscribe to the 'whole package' has been of great relief.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

...Do other Liberal leaning Christians hold what might be thought of by others as split beliefs?...

Yes. Compared to many other Christians, my views are quite liberal. I believe in women as well as GLBT people serving as well as leading worship. I think the communion table should be open to all who wish to partake because I think that is how Jesus would want it to be. Compared to many in our church, my views are more conservative. I prefer charity to government hand-out programs, and I support eliminating the income tax and privitization of Social Security.

As much as I detest 'labels', I guess I'm a social moderate and a fiscal conservative.

Many of the 8 points GPV linked are similar to beliefs held by The Disciples of Christ church in which I was raised and serve to this day. Thank you for the tcpc link GPV.

 

[GPV]

Thank you for the tcpc link GPV.

Any time.

 

[Izdaari]

In some ways I'm a liberal Christian; in other ways I'm conservative or even fundamentalist. I'm Pentecostal but post-modern (I guess the buzzword for that combo is charismissional... which I like: it's very descriptive). Maybe Alanis Morissette could write lyrics based on that. :jiggy:

 

[The Great Architect]

Interestingly enough, I found a group of people that seem to straddle the world between liberal and orthodox.

Here are the 8 points of liberal/progressive Christianity, then below thise the 8 principles of postmodern Christianity:
The Center for Progressive Christianity - Error
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. Have found an approach to God through the life and teachings of Jesus;

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. Recognize the faithfulness of other people who have other names for the way to God's realm, and acknowledge that their ways are true for them, as our ways are true for us;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3. Understand the sharing of bread and wine in Jesus's name to be a representation of an ancient vision of God's feast for all peoples;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4. Invite all people to participate in our community and worship life without insisting that they become like us in order to be acceptable (including but not limited to):[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]believers and agnostics,
conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,
women and men,
those of all sexual orientations and gender identities,
those of all races and cultures,
those of all classes and abilities,
those who hope for a better world and those who have lost hope;

[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5. Know that the way we behave toward one another and toward other people is the fullest expression of what we believe;

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6. Find more grace in the search for understanding than we do in dogmatic certainty - more value in questioning than in absolutes;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7. Form ourselves into communities dedicated to equipping one another for the work we feel called to do: striving for peace and justice among all people, protecting and restoring the integrity of all God's creation, and bringing hope to those Jesus called the least of his sisters and brothers; and[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8. Recognize that being followers of Jesus is costly, and entails selfless love, conscientious resistance to evil, and renunciation of privilege.[/FONT][/FONT]

Postmodernist Emergent Church principles:
Modern Reformation - 404 Error

1. Accept co-existence with different faiths gladly, not begrudgingly. It is not their fault if they are alive.
2. Dialogue presupposes commitment to one’s position, so it is surely not a bad thing to listen well. Dialogue should be congruent with confidence in the gospel.
3. We assume that the dialogue takes place in the presence of God, the unseen Presence. In such dialogue we may learn things, as Peter does in Acts 10–11. Similarly, Jesus learns from his interchange with the Syrophoenician woman.
4. Missional dialogue requires humility and vulnerability. But that should not frighten us, for when we are weak, we are strong. It is surely right, for instance, to acknowledge earlier atrocities committed by Christians, even as we remain careful not to disparage those earlier Christians.
5. Each religion operates in its own world and therefore demands different responses from Christians.
6. Christian witness does not preclude dialogue.
7. The “old, old story” may not be the true, true story, for we continue to grow, and even our discussion and dialogues contribute to such growth. In other words, the questions raised by postmodernism help us to grow.
8. Live with the paradox: we know no way of salvation apart from Jesus Christ, but we do not prejudge what God may do with others. We must simply live with the tension.

I am just about the most unorthodox person whom you will ever meet. As I have said before, I am relatively new to Christianity, and have not yet found a church etc. However, most of the above principles would be how I'd define Christianity; and provide the reasons that I joined, in the first place.

 

[Francine]

In some ways I'm a liberal Christian; in other ways I'm conservative or even fundamentalist. I'm Pentecostal but post-modern (I guess the buzzword for that combo is charismissional... which I like: it's very descriptive). Maybe Alanis Morissette could write lyrics based on that. :jiggy:

Alanis Morisette is God, and She wears boxer shorts:

YouTube - Alanis Morissette

 

[spiritually inclined]

I Hold what many in the Anglican/Church Of England would coonsider very Liberal views. At the same time I hold Many other preferences which are towards the Anglo Catholic side of the Church of England. Especially in having the Holy Communion as the centre of worship.

Do other Liberal leaning Christians hold what might be thought of by others as split beliefs?

I will be baptized and confirmed Sunday, March 30th, 2008, in the Episcopal Church. Indeed, I do have High Church and Anglo-Catholic tendencies. I pray the Rosary (using the three sets of traditional mysteries, i.e., Joyful, Sorrowful, and Glorious) every single day, and I usually use holy water in my prayers. (I have lots of holy water.) I cannot yet partake of Holy Communion (though that will change on Sunday). I prefer it that way because keeping the sacraments in their historical order and waiting and thinking while I develop my faith before I take the Sacrament makes it more meaningful to me. (Though I think others can benefit from doing this, I wouldn't want to deny someone Holy Communion if they really wanted to partake of it, even if they were not baptized.) I can still revere the sacrament with genuflection and other ways in the mean time.

The liturgy, set prayers, the rosary, holy water, all of these things and more, help me enter into that sacred space. It cleanses my mind and heart, so to speak, to meditate and feel the presence of the Divine. I think about traditional Christian themes, teachings, and doctrines and how I relate to these and how they are relevant to my life. All of these things are very traditional.

Yet I am the most unorthodox Christian I know. There is hardly anything in the Bible or the creeds that I accept as historical or literal. (I have my reasons -- can't go into all of it now.) I do not at all believe that the Bible is the word of God in any literal way. (Just read the Old Testament and much of the New and hopefully you can see what I mean!) I find more truth in the Bible by studying the sources it comes from, where it was written, what time it was written, and why it was written.

I do not believe in a literal virgin birth, resurrection, etc., though all of these things are a deep part of my faith with much meaning to me. Nor do I believe that all parts of the Scriptures state these things so clearly and definitively as the creeds which were developed in the third and fourth centuries. (Note that the creeds didn't fall out of heaven from God. They evolved over time, as did much of the Scriptures.)

I believe that qualified women should be ordained to all levels of the ministry, as should those gay, bisexual, lesbian, and transgendered Christians who are qualified. The LGBT community should have full access to all of the sacraments, including Holy Matrimony. (This should include legal marriage!)

I could go on and on. So yes, I love the beauty of tradition -- I even love many traditional themes and doctrines, such as the traditional mysteries of the Rosary as well as the Luminous mysteries. They are beautiful! But the way in which I relate to them, experience them, and believe in them is very non-literal and unorthodox. They are, after all, called mysteries. However, it doesn't bother me at all to kneel beside the orthodox in worship or Holy Communion. I just wish that many of them felt the same way about me!

James

 

[Quiddity]

It can be done. The problem is that liberal theology doesn't just flirt with concepts, they eventually adopt them. Liberation Theology is a good example of that. There is much that I agree with, but once it started to flirt with Marxism and eventually be more like it, I stepped on the brakes.

 

[spiritually inclined]

In some ways I'm a liberal Christian; in other ways I'm conservative or even fundamentalist. I'm Pentecostal but post-modern (I guess the buzzword for that combo is charismissional... which I like: it's very descriptive). Maybe Alanis Morissette could write lyrics based on that. :jiggy:

That sounds very interesting. Can you clarify what you mean? In which ways do you consider yourself post-modern, liberal, conservative, and fundamentalist?

James

 

[PureX]

I Hold what many in the Anglican/Church Of England would consider very Liberal views. At the same time I hold Many other preferences which are towards the Anglo Catholic side of the Church of England. Especially in having the Holy Communion as the centre of worship.

Do other Liberal leaning Christians hold what might be thought of by others as split beliefs?


Terry
_____________________________


Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

Human beings are very complex, multi-dimensional beings. We are capable of holding more than one idea at a time, and these may even contradict each other. This doesn't mean that we're bad or dishonest or weak. It simply means we are human, and can deal with multiple complex ideas simultaneously.

 

[spiritually inclined]

That is definately true in my experience. Hardly anything is black and white to me anymore, if anything.

James

 

[lunamoth]

Congratulations on your (soon) baptism and confirmation James.

The Episcopal Church welcomes you.

 

[spiritually inclined]

Thank you. : )

James

 

[sojourner]

I Hold what many in the Anglican/Church Of England would coonsider very Liberal views. At the same time I hold Many other preferences which are towards the Anglo Catholic side of the Church of England. Especially in having the Holy Communion as the centre of worship.

Do other Liberal leaning Christians hold what might be thought of by others as split beliefs?


Terry
_____________________________


Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! Pick me!

 

[Izdaari]

That sounds very interesting. Can you clarify what you mean? In which ways do you consider yourself post-modern, liberal, conservative, and fundamentalist?

James

Sorry for the delayed answer; I haven't been back here for a while. I''ll try to be specific and concise.

I'm postmodern/emergent in that I agree with the 8 postmodern/emergent points quoted earlier in this thread.

1. Accept co-existence with different faiths gladly, not begrudgingly. It is not their fault if they are alive.
2. Dialogue presupposes commitment to one’s position, so it is surely not a bad thing to listen well. Dialogue should be congruent with confidence in the gospel.
3. We assume that the dialogue takes place in the presence of God, the unseen Presence. In such dialogue we may learn things, as Peter does in Acts 10–11. Similarly, Jesus learns from his interchange with the Syrophoenician woman.
4. Missional dialogue requires humility and vulnerability. But that should not frighten us, for when we are weak, we are strong. It is surely right, for instance, to acknowledge earlier atrocities committed by Christians, even as we remain careful not to disparage those earlier Christians.
5. Each religion operates in its own world and therefore demands different responses from Christians.
6. Christian witness does not preclude dialogue.
7. The “old, old story” may not be the true, true story, for we continue to grow, and even our discussion and dialogues contribute to such growth. In other words, the questions raised by postmodernism help us to grow.
8. Live with the paradox: we know no way of salvation apart from Jesus Christ, but we do not prejudge what God may do with others. We must simply live with the tension.

And I enjoy reading and learning from Brian McLaren, Donald Miller, Rob Bell and other "emerging church" writers.

I'm conservative in that I believe everything in the Apostle's Creed.

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

(Church of England, Common Worship, 2000)

I'm fundamentalist in that I agree with the "five fundamentals" of fundamentalism:

• Inerrancy of the Scriptures (but my interpretation of inerrancy is probably the most liberal version of it.)
• The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus
• The doctrine of substitutionary atonement by God's grace and through human faith
• The bodily resurrection of Jesus
• The authenticity of Christ's miracles

However, I do not all agree with the social outlook of fundamentalism.

I agree with points 4,5,7 & 8 of liberal/progressive Christianity.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4. Invite all people to participate in our community and worship life without insisting that they become like us in order to be acceptable (including but not limited to):
[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]believers and agnostics,
conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,
women and men,
those of all sexual orientations and gender identities,
those of all races and cultures,
those of all classes and abilities,
those who hope for a better world and those who have lost hope;
[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5. Know that the way we behave toward one another and toward other people is the fullest expression of what we believe;

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7. Form ourselves into communities dedicated to equipping one another for the work we feel called to do: striving for peace and justice among all people, protecting and restoring the integrity of all God's creation, and bringing hope to those Jesus called the least of his sisters and brothers; and[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8. Recognize that being followers of Jesus is costly, and entails selfless love, conscientious resistance to evil, and renunciation of privilege.[/FONT][/FONT]

My denomination is Assemblies of God, and I usually vote Libertarian.

 

[jlow]

I'm new here. Good question of interaction between traditionalism and liberalism. One aspect of this is that I think we're all influenced by the traditions of family/religion/culture, etc. The liberalism part is our willingness to accept and be tolerant of others whose religious traditions/culture is different than our own. Seems to me we need to respect tradition/orthodoxy but always be on guard that it doesn't impede renewal and reformation.

 

[davidthegreek]

I must admit - that has been one of the main reasons that made me feel unable to commit myself totally to Christianity; I am the type of person who instinctly feels that to belong to a 'club' means accepting every single one of it's rules in full.

To me, I see a light at the end of the tunnel. The idea of accepting the Faith without having to subscribe to the 'whole package' has been of great relief.

do you have a problem with christianity or with the church?