Can you be born evil?

[Valjean]

Did hitler have a personality disorder? I would say yes we call it "normal".

I would say classifying hitler with a personality disorder other than "normal" is also "normal".

Arendt, somewhat disturbingly, found the Nazi leaders to be fairly unremarkable, psychologically. The "evil" wasn't in them, but in the peculiar circumstances they found themselves in -- circumstances in which many or most of us would have acted in the same way.
Their "evil" was banal.

 

[Frank Goad]

What does the bible say about being born evil and pre existence?

 

[Valjean]

View attachment 26857
But the vast majority dont act out in negatve ways. And not all indiviuals who act out in negative ways have brain annomolies.

Btw the kid in the vid which i didnt watch reminds me of a young ted bundy for some reason.

If you didn't watch the vid, how did it remind you of anything?

 

[Valjean]

What does the bible say about being born evil and pre existence?

What does the Bible have to do with either psychology or neurology?

 

[Frank Goad]

Good point.

 

[dybmh]

What does the bible say about being born evil and pre existence?

If you believe Wikipedia, pre-existence is not mainstream Christian.

"Ancient Greek thought and Islam affirm pre-existence, but it is generally denied in Christianity"

Pre-existence - Wikipedia

I think psalms might helpful though. Psalms 1, for instance takes a gentle approach to the wicked. They are like chaff in the wind.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What does the bible say about being born evil and pre existence?

I find there was No pre-existence for Adam, so No pre-existence for any of mankind.
The Bible does teach that man comes with an in-born conscience as a guide toward right and wrong.
However, if damaged, a conscience can be ruined.
There are pregnant women punched and kicked in the stomach causing conscience damage to the unborn.
Also, ignoring or violating one's conscience can lead to a calloused or unfeeling conscience.
Compare Romans 2:14-15 with 1 Timothy 4:2

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...... Babies start out innocent.

Yes, babies can start out with a clean slate, but unforeseen events can play a factor - Ecclesiastes 9:11B.
Some babies have a damaged conscience because of physical abuse done to the pregnant mother.
Through No fault of one's own, even a brain injury can damage a baby's or child's conscience.

 

[Skwim]

Look at this picture of a cute angelical baby comfortably smiling in a cloud of fluff among the stars; there's no way this could possibly be sinister in any way.

Hmmm. . . . Maybe not so much

.


.

 

[David T]

Arendt, somewhat disturbingly, found the Nazi leaders to be fairly unremarkable, psychologically. The "evil" wasn't in them, but in the peculiar circumstances they found themselves in -- circumstances in which many or most of us would have acted in the same way.
Their "evil" was banal.

I dont know if we would hace acted that way in the same curcumstances. Ditriech bonhoffer wrote a very powerful book in the middle of all that. A rare circumstance where theology actually has teeth and is powerful. The circumstances the situation places it at the crossroads and interestingly it cost bonhoeffer his life. But it was a dastardly choice for if he had not choosen the path he would no longer be true to himself. Sometimes peiples choi es are exactly who they are simply revealed because all the nicities of life have been stripped away and tossed into a furnace.

 

[David T]

If you didn't watch the vid, how did it remind you of anything?

Well we are influenced by social context. This topic was about does ecil exist. You posted about psychopathology and viola the look of the kid reminded me of ted bundy. Now if say the topic was about music who knows i might have said the kid reminds me of jim morrison as an example.

We tend to be sub consciously effected by socialization!!!!!, that is why when possible i am out hiking. I prefer the influence of trees!!! They kinda dont care what ever is prattling around in my brain they are too busy living to concern themselves with my thoughts!! No too many people creating a reality and existing only in that well its nuts to me! Not unlike the nazis btw.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I think you can if you believe in pre existence.

I think being born is a positive step for a spirit to take.

 

[Valjean]

Yes, babies can start out with a clean slate, but unforeseen events can play a factor - Ecclesiastes 9:11B.
Some babies have a damaged conscience because of physical abuse done to the pregnant mother.
Through No fault of one's own, even a brain injury can damage a baby's or child's conscience.

What is meant by a clean slate, in terms of evil? For that matter, what's meant by evil?
Clean slate = blank mind? unformed/unwired brain? clean moral, karmic or dharmic slate?
Is evil a stuff that one can be "possessed" with? Is a person evil, or an action?

Yes, brain injury can alter psychology, but uninjured people are born with varying mental characteristics just as they're born with different physical characteristics. Some are born aggressive, or impulsive, or without conscience.

Is evil a birth defect; an injury, a stuff, or something else?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What is meant by a clean slate, in terms of evil? For that matter, what's meant by evil?
Clean slate = blank mind? unformed/unwired brain? clean moral, karmic or dharmic slate?
Is evil a stuff that one can be "possessed" with? Is a person evil, or an action?
Yes, brain injury can alter psychology, but uninjured people are born with varying mental characteristics just as they're born with different physical characteristics. Some are born aggressive, or impulsive, or without conscience.
Is evil a birth defect; an injury, a stuff, or something else?

We are always dealing with extenuating circumstances, but unless damaged in some way, we come equipped with an in-born conscience. Kind of like a compass leaning toward what is right. So, a conscience can be trained or guided to distinguish between right and wrong or vice versa.

 

[dybmh]

An example of nurture vs. nature as a cause for behavior in children.

The Jane Elliott "Blue Eyes - Brown Eyes" experiment:

Shortly after MLK was assassinated: The experiment was conducted by a third-grade teacher, Jane Elliott, in Iowa.

The experiment is summarized below:

"... she designated the blue-eyed children as the superior group. She gave the blue-eyed children extra privileges. Blue-eyed children were encouraged to play only with other blue-eyed children and to ignore those with brown eyes. Elliott would not allow brown-eyed and blue-eyed children to drink from the same water fountain. She often exemplified the differences between the two groups by singling out students and would use negative aspects of brown-eyed children to emphasize a point."

She told the class "brown-eyed people are lesser than blue-eyed and that they must wear collars so people could tell who had brown eyes. She told her students that brown-eyed people are slower, dumber, worse listeners, didn’t know how to behave"

"At first, there was resistance among the students in the minority group to the idea that blue-eyed children were better than brown-eyed children. To counter this, Elliott lied to the children by stating that melanin was linked to their higher intelligence and learning ability. Shortly thereafter, this initial resistance fell away. Those who were deemed "superior" became arrogant, bossy, and otherwise unpleasant to their "inferior" classmates. Their grades on simple tests were better, and they completed mathematical and reading tasks that had seemed outside their ability before. The "inferior" classmates also transformed – into timid and subservient children who scored more poorly on tests, and even during recess isolated themselves, including those who had previously been dominant in the class. These children's academic performance suffered, even with tasks that had been simple before."

Jane Elliott - Wikipedia
Stereotyping Experiment: "A Class Divided" Summary and Analysis

A picture of the children wearing collars is below.

 

[dybmh]

 

[VoidCat]

An example of nurture vs. nature as a cause for behavior in children.

The Jane Elliot "Blue Eyes - Brown Eyes" experiment:

Shortly after MLK was assassinated: The experiment was conducted by a third-grade teacher, Jane Elliot, in Iowa.

The experiment is summarized below:

"... she designated the blue-eyed children as the superior group. She gave the blue-eyed children extra privileges. Blue-eyed children were encouraged to play only with other blue-eyed children and to ignore those with brown eyes. Elliott would not allow brown-eyed and blue-eyed children to drink from the same water fountain. She often exemplified the differences between the two groups by singling out students and would use negative aspects of brown-eyed children to emphasize a point."

She told the class "brown-eyed people are lesser than blue-eyed and that they must wear collars so people could tell who had brown eyes. She told her students that brown-eyed people are slower, dumber, worse listeners, didn’t know how to behave"

"At first, there was resistance among the students in the minority group to the idea that blue-eyed children were better than brown-eyed children. To counter this, Elliott lied to the children by stating that melanin was linked to their higher intelligence and learning ability. Shortly thereafter, this initial resistance fell away. Those who were deemed "superior" became arrogant, bossy, and otherwise unpleasant to their "inferior" classmates. Their grades on simple tests were better, and they completed mathematical and reading tasks that had seemed outside their ability before. The "inferior" classmates also transformed – into timid and subservient children who scored more poorly on tests, and even during recess isolated themselves, including those who had previously been dominant in the class. These children's academic performance suffered, even with tasks that had been simple before."

Jane Elliott - Wikipedia
Stereotyping Experiment: "A Class Divided" Summary and Analysis

A picture of the children wearing collars is below.

This seems like an intriguing experiment and reminds me of the monster experiment....Monster Study - Wikipedia
I wonder how the children responded after everything was all said and done and how this affects development later on... Were they able to reverse the negative effects of the experiment and still take home the important messages that the experiment brought?

 

[dybmh]

I wonder how the children responded after everything was all said and done and how this affects development later on...

The experiment was short, only 2 days long. On the first day children with blue eyes were favored. On the next day, brown eyed children were favored.

Frontline on PBS did a documentary on the experiment called "A Class Divided".

In it there is video from the experiment as it was being conducted. The children's reactions during and immediately after the experiment is shown.

When the experiment was concluded, the children are seen hugging each other and appear happy to be returning to the previous paradigm of the entire class as one unit.

In the documentary ( at approx. minute 20 ) the children return as adults and are interviewed. All the adults agree that the experiment was positive.

There are several powerful quotes in the documentary. I think the quote most relevant to this discussion comes from an adult in the reunion interview where he described feeling "evil" when he was in the favored group.

This experiment shows that a child's seemingly evil behavior can be greatly influenced by external factors.

 

[VoidCat]

The experiment was short, only 2 days long. On the first day children with blue eyes were favored. On the next day, brown eyed children were favored.

Frontline on PBS did a documentary on the experiment called "A Class Divided".

In it there is video from the experiment as it was being conducted. The children's reactions during and immediately after the experiment is shown.

When the experiment was concluded, the children are seen hugging each other and appear happy to be returning to the previous paradigm of the entire class as one unit.

In the documentary ( at approx. minute 20 ) the children return as adults and are interviewed. All the adults agree that the experiment was positive.

There are several powerful quotes in the documentary. I think the quote most relevant to this discussion comes from an adult in the reunion interview where he described feeling "evil" when he was in the favored group.

This experiment shows that a child's seemingly evil behavior can be greatly influenced by external factors.

That is good.

 

[HonestJoe]

I think you can if you believe in pre existence.

Evil is something you do, not something you are. If it was an inborn characteristic, how could you be held responsible for it?