Can we say organized religion is a positive force in the world with headlines like this?

[beenherebeforeagain]

I think these are two ways of stating the same thing. So the "pros" list stands at one...the reduction of anxiety about death/meaningless life.



I hear this one all the time and I hate it. People say religion "fosters community" or other things that are similar to what you said here about group solidarity. However what this fails to take into account is that and "group solidarity" caused by religion is really exclusionary when we look at the wider scope of our global community.

I use the sarcastic example of a community Block Party. Which is more inclusive:

A. Fourth of July Block Party!
B. Fourth of July Christian Block Party...Jew Free since 1985!

I argue that perceived group solidary via religion is actually a negative force that promotes xenophobia and excludes members of other religions or of no religion from the supposed cohesion. In 1987 when George HW Bush said that atheists should be considered neither patriots or citizens of the United States, I'll bet Christians everywhere felt cohesion. Not so much for the rest of us.

Striking this from the list, the "pro" column still stand at one entry.



Non-religious give just as much to charity as religious people. What's worse is groups with religious names take credit for non-religious donations. For example I give very heavily to St. Jude's Children's Hospital. That is counted as a Christian charity even though thousands of my atheist dollars go there every year. Increasingly there are non-religious organizations like Chive Charities. This one is a wash, and for that reason I'm striking it from the "pros" list and we still stand at one positive effect of religion!



I got married by a Justice of the Peace, no religion involved. Most life milestones are not religious...graduation, buying a home, bearing children. Strike this from the record!

The list still stands at 1.

Because YOUR values discredit/dismisses everyone else's values.

As I, and several others have pointed out, some things can appear as both positives and negatives, operating in different ways. And the way we choose to apply our values decides how much each item belongs in each list. You've clearly decided that anything that anyone wants to credit to religion, you'll just negate and move along as if they said nothing.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I think these are two ways of stating the same thing. So the "pros" list stands at one...the reduction of anxiety about death/meaningless life.



I hear this one all the time and I hate it. People say religion "fosters community" or other things that are similar to what you said here about group solidarity. However what this fails to take into account is that and "group solidarity" caused by religion is really exclusionary when we look at the wider scope of our global community.

I use the sarcastic example of a community Block Party. Which is more inclusive:

A. Fourth of July Block Party!
B. Fourth of July Christian Block Party...Jew Free since 1985!

I argue that perceived group solidary via religion is actually a negative force that promotes xenophobia and excludes members of other religions or of no religion from the supposed cohesion. In 1987 when George HW Bush said that atheists should be considered neither patriots or citizens of the United States, I'll bet Christians everywhere felt cohesion. Not so much for the rest of us.

Striking this from the list, the "pro" column still stand at one entry.



Non-religious give just as much to charity as religious people. What's worse is groups with religious names take credit for non-religious donations. For example I give very heavily to St. Jude's Children's Hospital. That is counted as a Christian charity even though thousands of my atheist dollars go there every year. Increasingly there are non-religious organizations like Chive Charities. This one is a wash, and for that reason I'm striking it from the "pros" list and we still stand at one positive effect of religion!



I got married by a Justice of the Peace, no religion involved. Most life milestones are not religious...graduation, buying a home, bearing children. Strike this from the record!

The list still stands at 1.

Way back in post #6, you noted that on another site, you and others created a long list of negatives. Care to share that list, so perhaps we can discuss whether or not we agree with any or all of those categorizations?

 

[YmirGF]

I can see some positives off the top of my head, but they don't necessarily translate into social good:
1. Gives people a meaning to life; reduces anxiety
2. Eases fear of death
3. Promotes group solidarity/cohesion
4. Organized churches provide charity
5. Provides rituals for life milestones, like marriage

On the negative side, I see
1. Political involvement that leads to either persecuting others or forcing them to adopt a religion
2. Human rights abuses and terrorism with religion used as a rationale
3. Corrupt organizational problems, like the Catholic child molestation problems
4. Fostering a culture of intolerance
5. Supporting laws that discriminate against women, LGBT people, atheists

The negatives seem more social and the positives seem more personal.

Which is sort of weird when you consider that the social is a collective of the personal.

 

[Scott C.]

On another site I frequent there was once a discussion of the positives and negatives of religion. I can come up with a very long list of the negative effects of religion. The hatred of gay people we see, beliefs that cause adherents to refuse life saving medical treatment, distrust of people other religions/general xenophobia, false hope that praying will help your situation, mistaking the effects of mental illness for divine contact, rejection of globally accepted scientific principles, preoccupation with hell and who ends up there, negative view of human sexuality...the list goes on and on.

I'm glad I don't follow any of those religions. My religion:

1. Love all people, gays included.
2. Accept life saving medical treatment.
3. Default position is to trust others, until they prove me wrong.
4. Faith that God answers prayers.
5. Recognize the realities of and suffering caused by mental illness. Can tell the difference between divine inspiration and imagined experience.
6. Pro-science.
7. Not preoccupied with hell.
8. Human sexuality is a beautiful gift from God.
9. The list of great things goes on and on.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can see some positives off the top of my head, but they don't necessarily translate into social good:
1. Gives people a meaning to life; reduces anxiety
2. Eases fear of death
3. Promotes group solidarity/cohesion
4. Organized churches provide charity
5. Provides rituals for life milestones, like marriage

Regarding 1 and 2: in my experience, religion tends to increase, not decrease, anxiety.

I've had several family members die of cancer. Watching their (and my) friends, family and loved ones cope with this, I noticed that usually:

- the non-religious people get angry, sad, and every other negative emotion that happens as you watch someone you care about get sick, go through pain, and die.

- the religious people get just as angry, sad, etc. at what's going on, but also experience shame with themselves at their sadness and anger (since it implies a lack of faith) and spiritual crises trying to reconcile what they're seeing with the loving God they think they're supposed to believe in.

Regarding 4: your charitable dollar goes further when it doesn't have a cut taken off the top to cover church expenses.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm glad I don't follow any of those religions. My religion:

1. Love all people, gays included.
2. Accept life saving medical treatment.
3. Default position is to trust others, until they prove me wrong.
4. Faith that God answers prayers.
5. Recognize the realities of and suffering caused by mental illness. Can tell the difference between divine inspiration and imagined experience.
6. Pro-science.
7. Not preoccupied with hell.
8. Human sexuality is a beautiful gift from God.
9. The list of great things goes on and on.

Despite all this, there's no shortage of stories from former Mormons describing quite negative experiences.

Edit: And the LDS Church has been guilty of some very unloving acts toward homosexuality in the past few years.

 

[Demonslayer]

Because YOUR values discredit/dismisses everyone else's values.

Which part of my list did you disagree with?

As I, and several others have pointed out, some things can appear as both positives and negatives, operating in different ways

They can yes. So if I see it as a negative and you see it as a positive, is it wrong for me to state my opinion?

Is it somehow more OK for you to say, for example, that religion brings community spirit than it is for me to say I think religious community spirit is divisive and exclusive of others?

You've clearly decided that anything that anyone wants to credit to religion, you'll just negate and move along as if they said nothing

Not true, I left the very first positive on the list. Religion provides comfort for those who are afraid of death.

I think the rest of my negations are valid, and I welcome any specific feedback.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...e-man-kills-14-of-his-family-commits-suicide/

Indian man kills 14 of his family members then himself.

"Hasnain Warekar, 35, employed at a financial services firm in Navi Mumbai, had allegedly slit the throats of his family members, including his wife, parents, sisters, and seven children, apart from his own three-month-old daughter, before hanging himself."

Can we make the case that Indians are mass-murderers and prone to suicide of does it fail that test?

Were his actions because of his nationality? They would have to be for the analogy to work.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Which part of my list did you disagree with?



They can yes. So if I see it as a negative and you see it as a positive, is it wrong for me to state my opinion?

Is it somehow more OK for you to say, for example, that religion brings community spirit than it is for me to say I think religious community spirit is divisive and exclusive of others?



Not true, I left the very first positive on the list. Religion provides comfort for those who are afraid of death.

I think the rest of my negations are valid, and I welcome any specific feedback.

The specific feedback I was giving you was that your categorizations reflect your values; others' results/values may vary, but you don't really seem to be doing that (although you SAY) you are. If you were really listening to what others were saying, you'd be putting some items on both lists, perhaps with notes about why different people view them differently.

You're free to make whatever lists you want, but in asking for feedback from others, I would think you would want to include their views. Otherwise, I don't really see any value to this exercise. Except that you get to justify everything to yourself however you want to.

Back to the original OP, and the title of the thread: because peoples' values vary, I don't see how one can generalize to ALL RELIGION, and add up sums in some sort of cost/benefit analysis to reach a yea or nay...because we are talking about peoples' values, and a great many religions and religious traditions, and not factual things that could be tallied up.

 

[Demonslayer]

Way back in post #6, you noted that on another site, you and others created a long list of negatives. Care to share that list, so perhaps we can discuss whether or not we agree with any or all of those categorizations?

It was years and years ago, no way I could find the list. But lets use the partial list I included in that same point, reformatted for ease of nitpicking:

The hatred of gay people we see
Beliefs that cause adherents to refuse life saving medical treatment
Distrust of people other religions/general xenophobia
False hope that praying will help your situation
Mistaking the effects of mental illness for divine contact
Rejection of globally accepted scientific principles
Preoccupation with hell and who ends up there
Negative view of human sexuality

 

[Tumah]

Were his actions because of his nationality? They would have to be for the analogy to work.

Analogy?
I thought we can make sweeping generalizations based on the actions of an individual or specific group. That's all I was doing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is hard for me to take seriously that because of an incident in Saudi Arabia you think this might mean all of religion everywhere is screwy? Really?

Couldn't you have chosen a somewhat more "general" place and circumstance?

Closer to me, a teenage student at a Catholic high school was bullied by a teacher for being lesbian. Is that more to your liking?

Or how about the story from today about the bombing of a Target store bathroom in what appears at first glance to be religiously fueled transphobia?

Or how about all the atheist bloggers who gave been murdered in Bangladesh recently?

The Saudi Arabia story is just one example - if you let me know what region and religious affiliation you'd find more meaningful and I'm sure we can point you to some more personally impactful examples.

 

[Demonslayer]

The specific feedback I was giving you was that your categorizations reflect your values

Of course, isn't everyone opining on their personal views of these things?

If you were really listening to what others were saying, you'd be putting some items on both lists, perhaps with notes about why different people view them differently.

Are others doing that? For example, I put the "enhances community spirit/cohesion" idea on the negative list because I view it as negative. Others have put it on the positive list because they view it as positive.

Have the people who view it as positive, also put it on their negative list, citing my points? I haven't seen that, so I'd wonder why I would be expected to put it on a positive list, citing other's points.

We're each making our own points is how I see it.

You're free to make whatever lists you want, but in asking for feedback from others, I would think you would want to include their views.

I'm asking for their views as part of the feedback. Sticking with this example, I'm asking people that see religion as a positive "community builder" to let me know what they think of my viewpoint that it is really a negative because any religious community building events necessarily exclude outsiders.

I don't see how one can generalize to ALL RELIGION, and add up sums in some sort of cost/benefit analysis to reach a yea or nay...because we are talking about peoples' values, and a great many religions and religious traditions, and not factual things that could be tallied up.

So maybe you just don't see value at all in making lists of positives and negatives about religion because you feel religion is too general to judge, and because it's all based on people's personal values. That's fine, perhaps it is a worthless exercise.

The way I feel is the exercise is about looking what other people say is positive or negative about religion, and just seeing what interesting ideas come out of it.

 

[jeager106]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-for-expressing-his-atheism-on-a6900056.html

10 Years prison and 2,000 lashes for being an atheist in Saudi Arabia.

"In 2014 the oil-rich kingdom, under the late Saudi King Abdullah, introduced a series of new laws which defined atheists as terrorists, according to a report released from Human Rights Watch. "

This is intended as a topic for serious debate: Can we make the case that organized religion is positive for society, or does it fail that test?

Oh, please. Can't you see a difference in various religions and different values and
customs.
It wasn't all that long ago that the Japanese would commit suicide rather than accept
dishonor of defeat. This part of the Japanese code of honor based on the religious
view of that time period.
Actually not long ago the Japanese producer of a 3 wheel dirt bike was sued
because it might be unsafe and several youngsters were killed or crippled
on the things.
The person in charge of manufacturing the Japanese vehicle committed
ritual suicide.

 

[jeager106]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-for-expressing-his-atheism-on-a6900056.html

10 Years prison and 2,000 lashes for being an atheist in Saudi Arabia.

"In 2014 the oil-rich kingdom, under the late Saudi King Abdullah, introduced a series of new laws which defined atheists as terrorists, according to a report released from Human Rights Watch. "

This is intended as a topic for serious debate: Can we make the case that organized religion is positive for society, or does it fail that test?

In that society the "victim" is lucky he's not dead.
You are painting with a VERY broad brush comparing Islam to ALL organized
religion.
Make a better case for lumping all religions with Islam.
Sharia law also permits killing homosexuals and they DO.
Pushing them off roof tops seems to be a favored method.
Then there is burning people alive for watching television, alleged adultery,
and other offenses that carry a death penalty.

 

[George-ananda]

Except for that fact that many of the people enforcing things like prison time and physical beating for atheists freely choose to be part of the religion.

I'm not against your idea that freedom of religion must be protected...it certainly does and should be. We agree on this for sure.

But freely choosing a religion is far from a guarantee that the result ends up being "fine." Just ask the 900 Jehovah's Witnesses last year who freely chose to be members, and then died because the religion they freely chose commanded them to turn down life saving blood transfusions. Killed some kids along the way too...not fine in my book.

I agreed that we have to choose our beliefs wisely or strange things can happen. The positive side of organized religion is the joy and positive feelings its members can experience in their community and in their own internal lives. I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater

 

[Orbit]

I think you are asking the wrong question. The capacity for immorality is a universal property of human action. it is generally a really bad idea to impose a criteria which is sufficiently arbitrary or restrictive that any group will fail. The very nature of the question you are asking is loaded that a single abuse reflects on an entire belief system and on its adherents as a whole as "organised religion".
The fact that no religion could possibly live up to any such standards is not a reflection on the immorality of organised religion but the fact that our conception of what is and is not moral are not really related to how people actually behave. The morals we possess, whilst secular humanist, originate from Christianity and are therefore interrelated with the very abuses we are condemning: the belief in obedience as the measure of good is the basis for passing judgement on a persons character (or in this case the nature of a belief) that would sentence them to eternal reward or punishment.

The first step is to recognise that this hypocrisy exists and, as easy as it is for secularists to condemn organised religion as evil, by doing so they are simply imitating the very practices they most abhor.

That's not an answer to your question but is poses the new question of finding a new moral system which actually corresponds to how people behave and what actually motivates them: you have to go "beyond good and evil" and recognise that criticising religion with a morality that developed directly out of it, means we haven't learned the lessons to supersede the abuses we condemn. What point is there saying something is wrong if we are going to do it anyway?

Did you see my post on positives and negatives? The negatives are real and get codified into laws that discriminate against non-believers (of whatever that society's religion happens to be). Law extends beyond simple hypocrisy: it has very real consequences in people's lives. I don't think we can dismiss this issue by essentially saying "no one's perfect". These are systemic problems that can and do occur within any religion.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

"Can we say organized religion is a positive force in the world with headlines like this?"

@Orbit , the more pertinent question is can we say that OPs such as yours is a positive force when it reduces organized religion to headlines like this?

 

[Demonslayer]

1. Love all people, gays included.
2. Accept life saving medical treatment.
3. Default position is to trust others, until they prove me wrong.
4. Faith that God answers prayers.
5. Recognize the realities of and suffering caused by mental illness. Can tell the difference between divine inspiration and imagined experience.
6. Pro-science.
7. Not preoccupied with hell.
8. Human sexuality is a beautiful gift from God.
9. The list of great things goes on and on.

Damn it, now I have another list to refute! You people are tough!

 

[Demonslayer]

The positive side of organized religion is the joy and positive feelings its members can experience in their community

What about those outside their religious community? Wouldn't it be better to have a Block Party where everyone is invited, rather than a Block Party when people of only one religion were invited?