Can we prove or disprove the claims of any Messenger of God?

[Vinayaka]

My impression is that Dharmic religions can work a bit differently in this regard: correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that practices and beliefs are often "verified" by actually putting them into practice, with the assumption that if they work as advertized, this is a sign that they're correct, right?

Yes, that's about it. That and far less emphasis on intellect. We're like tourists walking through a forest, not like a botanist, or a treecutter. I go to temple because it uplifts me, not because I have to, or to prove God exists, or because somebody else suggested it, and yes that would be experiential confirmation. There would be no discussion with anyone about said experience. There are 'silence' signs about the place. So dharmic faiths are far more introspective, internal, personal, etc. It puts the onus on the individual.

 

[Muffled]

What are different claims that prove bahai claims as false according to the OP?

#3 I believe God has a different way of saying things from the way men say them. That shows up in Jesus and Muhammad but not in the B man.

 

[Muffled]

IMHO. Truth is beyond matter, so Manifestations of God are pointers at best to help you reach your goal in life.

In this context for me it is unimportant to prove whether a Manifestation is true or not.

It is enough for me to experience that the Manifestation "works for me".

I believe a "works for me" religion is a do it yourself religion and of little value.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, that's about it. That and far less emphasis on intellect. We're like tourists walking through a forest, not like a botanist, or a treecutter. I go to temple because it uplifts me, not because I have to, or to prove God exists, or because somebody else suggested it, and yes that would be experiential confirmation. There would be no discussion with anyone about said experience. There are 'silence' signs about the place. So dharmic faiths are far more introspective, internal, personal, etc. It puts the onus on the individual.

I don't think Christians go to church "to prove God exists" either. They go to practice their religion... it's just that their religion would be undermined if their god didn't literally exist.

 

[Muffled]

Thank you. So what are your expectations for a future Messiah and would it be possible for you to make the same mistake as the Jews?

I believe there are two. The Anti Christ who may be the embodiment of Satan. He speaks like Jesus but in order to deceive. It makes it difficult for those who go by #3 only. The second is Jesus when He returns in the sky to rescue Israel.

 

[Muffled]

thanks

yes a lot of reasons ill list a few at the top of my head..
1) Krishn'as clearly states that - he is indifferent to weather or not his creations worship him.. but if they choose to do so he helps them out..his attitude is perfect.ALso he has mentioned that I cannot be blamed for creating a meaningless universe , thus he has the karma system and a grand meaningfulness which was not reveled.--- the purpose of creation from other books is - i created you to worship me. and you are supposed to get one life to do that .and even in the afterlife u do enjoy heven but worship never stops.
2) He also acknowledges that many people worship deities and demi god's of their choice for short term rewards, which he is comfortable with and says i myself vest the power in the deities to fulfill those rewards.( SO no jealousy / anger of any sort towards stone gods or multi demi' gods"
3) krishna gives paths to liberation based on the aptitude of the follower.. one can be a bhakti yogi karm yogi gyan yogi etc. and various other detailed concerns that people have are closely understood .
4) the way he educates arjun he makes sure that the teachings stand the test of time and should apply to all mankind throughout the ages..
5) however in some other books if god says " do not enter the prophets house while he is eating, and coz he is shy . such a verse is of the past and doesn't seem like a message that can help anyone in after prophet passed away, since he was "the last one" so the verse is pretty much void.

I believe Krishna fails on #3 at least. I believe 2. can be expanded to whether the claimant had true or false concepts. I believe Krishna believed in the idea that an animal could connect with a spirit. God has told me that is not the case.

 

[Marcion]

God has told me that is not the case.

Well I'm glad we got that one settled then!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

#3 I believe God has a different way of saying things from the way men say them. That shows up in Jesus and Muhammad but not in the B man.

B man?

Do you feel god says the same thing through Muhammad as he does Jesus?

 

[stvdv]

IMHO. Truth is beyond matter, so Manifestations of God are pointers at best to help you reach your goal in life.

In this context for me it is unimportant to prove whether a Manifestation is true or not.

It is enough for me to experience that the Manifestation "works for me".

I believe a "works for me" religion is a do it yourself religion and of little value.

You created a religion "out of my words". That I would call "do it yourself religion", but I do not belittle your effort.

 

[stvdv]

B man?

My guess "B = The Messenger of the Bahai Faith" [Bahaullah]

 

[Jim]

The Baha'i Faith is not a syncretic religion or a mish mash of the teachings of various other religions. It is founded on the Teachings of Baha'u'llah as Christianity is founded in Christ and Judaism on Moses. So as Christianity draws on what has gone before it with the Hebrew Bible, and Islam draws on both Judaism and Christianity, so too does the Baha'i Faith draw on what has gone before. However most importantly, it is an indepedent religion founded on Baha'u'llah's Revelation.

I don't think that the fact that it's founded on the teachings of Baha'u'llah is any proof in itself that it isn't syncretic or a mish mash.

 

[Jim]

What the OP is about is are we able to coherently and clearly provide proofs for our beliefs whatever they may be? So what's your belief and can you provide proofs? The second question, does it really matter?

It doesn't really matter to me. What matters to me is for people to learn to love, trust and follow Baha'u'llah, and for me that has nothing to do with any beliefs. It's just something that happens from personal experience with Him.

 

[Jim]

Its good that on some level my beliefs make sense to me, even if they seem like complete nonsense to another.

So what matters to you is for the proofs to be convincing to you, and not for them to be convincing to anyone else? Does that apply to other people's beliefs? When considering other people's beliefs, are you satisfied for their beliefs to be convincing to them, even if they aren't convincing to you?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My guess "B = The Messenger of the Bahai Faith" [Bahaullah]

Interesting way to refer to him. Reminds me of a cartoon action figure.

 

[Jim]

So if we can establish that Buddha and Christ really did walk the earth and have a glimpse of what They taught, we're half way there.

I don't think that's necessary at all. I don't think that any of the good that religious lore and scriptures can do depends on believing that any of it ever really happened. It could all be pure fiction and still have all the same possibilities. In fact, I think that debating about how much of it really happened actually gets in the way of the good it can do.

 

[Nakosis]

This thread is the start of a discussion between @Trailblazer and I about Proofs. What are the proofs that God exists, that a prophet is who He says He is, or that He is a Messenger of God? Are there really any proofs at all or is it all an illusion and wishful thinking at best and delusion at worst?

Bahá’ís believe God has inspired Divine Teachers with laws and teachings for mankind in each age. In the past there have been many Prophets and Messengers. How do we know whether any of these past Messengers were really from God?

I believe there are several proofs which can used to demonstrate the truth of such a claim. These proofs can be used to demonstrate the truth of great Teachers of the past such as Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ and Muhammad and more recently Bahá'u’lláh.

So what are these proofs of the truth of any Manifestation of God?

____________________________________________________________________________________

1. His Character

According to Bahá'u’lláh the 'first and foremost testimony' of a Messenger of God is 'His own Self'. The Manifestation of God has a dual nature consisting of both a divine station and a human station. For example He may show innate knowledge from childhood and from an early age be renowned for Their extraordinary wisdom. The religious leaders of the day may find themselves unable rival Him.

He may always the friend of those in need and be detached from the worldly pursuits. Instead He may accept a life of persecution, imprisonment or poverty in the path of God. From His lowly state He may fearlessly address the religious and worldly rulers proclaiming His Mission, calling upon them to be just and fair to their people.

2. His Revelation

The laws and teachings brought by the Manifestation of God are the next proof. They identify God to
be the origin of this Revelation rather than Themselves. Such Teachings are like those from a Divine Physician who has His pulse on the finger of mankind. In His unerring wisdom He proclaims the remedy of the age in which They live.

3. His verses

The verses (words) revealed by the Manifestations of God are different from those of men. They are the 'Word of God'. They have great spiritual power and change the hearts of men. They possess a special beauty and eloquence.

4. The martyrs

When God sends a new Teacher to mankind detached pure-hearted souls seek Him out. They become so inspired and transformed that they readily and joyfully sacrifice their wealth, position and even their lives in the path of God.

5. The repudiation

Christ was persecuted by the clergy and the rulers of His day. The same happened to Muhammad and to every Manifestation of God.

6. The two-fold sign

Many of of us know of the star which signaled the birth of Jesus and of John the Baptist who spoke of Him. Bahá’u’lláh says that every Manifestation of God is announced by one sign in the physical heaven (e.g. a star or comet) and another sign in the spiritual heaven (eg Matthew 24:29).

7. Prophecies Fulfilled

All the Manifestations of God are part of one Plan and each one foretells the coming of the next.

8. Future Events Foretold

The Manifestations of God may make prophecies of future events.

9. Miracles

While the Manifestations of God may perform many miraculous deeds we should be cautious with this proof as theyare only proofs for those who see and but not so much for those who hear them second-hand.

____________________________________________________________________________________

So are these 'proofs' of any value? Why do you believe what you do and is evidence or proof important?

I'm not looking for an argument or to push my Baha'i beliefs on anybody, just respectful courteous discussion. Thanks again for your thoughts and comments.

Proofs are something one can validate for themselves. Something claimed as true by someone else isn't a proof. Most of the "proofs" listed are more opinions than proofs. Like whether a prophecy has come true is more of an opinion than a proof.

 

[Audie]

I don't believe all nine are necessary.

i believe RF sys you can't know anything. We may think we are pretty sure about something but that is not a guarantee.

I believe there are different kinds of proofs. There are accounts of witnesses, personal experience and scientific proof.

There are many different uses for the word "proof" which
should not be taken as being the same.

It is like the word "frog". Is that a hoppy amphibian, or,
a violin thingy?

Proof in alcohol is hardly the same as mathematical
or scientific proof, still less is "personal experience"
or celeb testimonials.

 

[Jim]

Therefore, whatever the other religions say is not the truth, unless it agrees with what the Baha'i Faith says.

This is one of the things I've seen people complaining about in forums all over the Internet. Often in Internet discussions it looks like what Baha'is mean by saying that they believe in the divine origin of other religions, is that they accept the parts of them that they can interpret in a way that agrees with their own personal beliefs.

 

[paarsurrey]

I really do think anyone sincerely seeking truth will find it by way of their own grapplings.

God can not be shown to exist by way of proofs.

No human is divine, nor equal to the divine. Divinity being authority in truth.

The most ideal and perfect attributes of being can be self discovered by anyone who desires such things.

If one has not witnessed the miracles themself, they can not be known of. Only believed.

All these religions are far from being in harmony with each other. If one is right all others are wrong.

I was raised Christian, and the way, the truth, and the life was by way of only one, Jesus.

I have no religion now, and from what i have read of each its a stretch of wishfulness to try to harmonize all these religions.

I can cherry pick all the good statements from each religion, and there would be a lot of wisdom to gain. But each religion as a whole claims to be the one true way.

Along comes Ba'hullah and does just that, cherry pick wise words, and then mesh all religions into a process of increasing revelation about God.

Since all these messengers have died all we have is words of text to go by. No evidence, and no proofs that would make it obvious that God exists, and that any plan is being carried out.

If God exists, God would undeniably put forth clarity, harmony, and obviousness to each generation in all the Earth.

"No human is divine, nor equal to the divine. Divinity being authority in truth." Unquote.

No human could be G-d and the truthful G-d is not a human being. I agree with one here.
If Bahaullah claimed to be a human being, then his claim for divinity is not correct.

Regards

 

[Jim]

So are these 'proofs' of any value? Why do you believe what you do and is evidence or proof important?

The question in the thread title, and the poll question, look very different to me. I can imagine a person being a messenger of G_d without being a spiritual teacher, and I can imagine a person being a spiritual teacher without being a messenger of G_d. Also, asking whether we can prove or disprove something looks to me like a different question from asking if proofs can be of any value.

My answer to the poll question, "Are proofs of any value in determining the credentials or authenticity of Spiritual Teacher?" might depend on the teacher, and what my reasons are for wanting to know. I've had many spiritual teachers, without their credentials or authenticity being an issue for me. They came into my life, and I learned from them, without ever thinking about their credentials or authenticity. The only examples I can think of where the credentials or authenticity of a spiritual teacher have been an issue for me have been with Baha'u'llah, and with the people that He calls "Manifestations of God." Even with them, what makes their credentials or authenticity an issue for me is what Baha'u'llah says about it, and not because it matters to me otherwise. I'm not following Baha'u'llah because of what I think about His credentials or authenticity.

In those cases, I don't think proofs have ever been of much value to me. I've never been convinced by any proofs, but that's just me. I'm never convinced about anything, by a lot of things that convince other people. For example, I don't trust any opinion poll to tell me anything at all that I would want to know, about what people think in the population that was allegedly sampled. The reason I trust what Baha'u'llah says about Manifestations of G_d, and Himself as one of them, is not because of any proofs, but because I've learned from experience to trust Him.

Most of your proofs look to me like they would only be proofs to someone who already believes.