Can we live without sin?

[MountainPine]

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Part 1

Many believe that Jesus (and Mary, according to Catholics) was the only one in history who has never sinned, but is this scriptural? Is it possible to be righteous like Christ? Is the doctrine of original sin true according to the Bible? Or does the Bible command us to be righteous? All this will be answered by examining the scriptures. (I will be quoting from The Scriptures version of the Bible.)

First of all, it must be pointed out that the Bible speaks of righteous people other than Christ:

[Genesis 6:9] – This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with Elohim.

[Genesis 15:6 (Romans 4:3)] – And he [Abram] believed in Yahweh, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.

[Ezekiel 14:14] – ...even though these three men, Noah, Dani’ĕl, and Iyob [Job], were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness,” declares the Master Yahweh.

[Psalm 1:5-6] – Therefore the wrong shall not rise in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For Yahweh knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wrong comes to naught.

[Matthew 13:46] – Then the righteous shall shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

[Revelation 14:1-5] – And I looked and saw a Lamb standing on Mount Tsiyon [Zion], and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s Name written upon their foreheads. And I heard a voice out of the heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder, and I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a renewed song before the throne, and before the four living creatures, and the elders. And no one was able to learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. They are those who were not defiled with women, for they are maidens. They are those following the Lamb wherever He leads them on. They were redeemed from among men, being first-fruits to Elohim and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no falsehood, for they are blameless before the throne of Elohim.

Throughout scripture we see that God demands nothing short of righteousness, and that Christ and Paul commanded the same:

[Isaiah 56:1] – Thus said Yahweh, “Guard right-ruling, and do righteousness, for near is My deliverance to come, and My righteousness to be revealed.

[Proverbs 15:9-10] – The way of the wrong one is an abomination to Yahweh, But He loves him who pursues righteousness. Discipline is grievous to him who forsakes the way; He who hates reproof dies.

[Proverbs 21:21] – He who pursues righteousness and kindness finds life, righteousness and esteem

[Matthew 5:48] – Therefore, be perfect, as your Father in the heavens is perfect.

[Matthew 6:33] – But seek first the reign of Elohim, and His righteousness, and all these matters shall be added to you.

[Romans 4:7-8 (Psalm 32:1-2)] – Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered, blessed is the man to whom Yahweh shall by no means reckon sin.

[Philippians 2:14-16] – Do all matters without grumblings and disputings, in order that you be blameless and faultless, children of Elohim without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding on to the Word of life, for a boast to me in the day of Messiah, that I have not run in vain or laboured in vain.

[2 Timothy 2:22] – If, then, anyone cleanses himself from these matters, he shall be a vessel unto value, having been set apart, of good use to the Master, having been prepared for every good work. And flee from the lusts of youth, but pursue righteousness, belief, love, peace with those calling on the Master out of a clean heart.

To be righteous is to be obedient to God's Torah. We can see that Christ taught the importance of obeying the law:

[Matthew 19:17] – And see, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good shall I do to have everlasting life?” And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the commands.”

[John 14:6] “Yahushua said to him, “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

What is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

[Psalm 119:1] “Blessed are the perfect in the way, Who walk in the Torah of Yahweh!”

[Psalm 119:142] “Your righteousness is righteousness forever, And Your Torah is truth.”

[Proverbs 13:14] “The Torah of the wise is a fountain of life, Turning one away from the snares of death.”

[Matthew 5:17-18] “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.”

[Matthew 22:37-40] “And Yahushua said to him, ‘You shall love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great command. And the second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ On these two commands hang all the Torah and the Prophets.”

Loving God with all heart, being, and mind requires keeping His commandments.

[John 14:15] “If you love Me, you shall guard My commands.”

[John 14:23-24] “Yahushua answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. “He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

[1 John 2:3-5] “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”

[Revelation 22:14] “Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city.”

Many people think that the apostle Paul did away with the law, but that simply isn't true:

[Romans 2:13] – For not the hearers of the Torah are righteous in the sight of Elohim, but the doers of the law shall be declared right.

[Romans 7:12] – So that the Torah truly is set-apart, and the command set-apart, and righteous, and good.


James also taught the importance of obeying the Torah:

[James 1:25] – But he that looked into the perfect Torah, that of freedom, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing of the Torah.

Knowing that the Torah is what Jesus represented, one can infer that the Word which he was preaching was the fulfillment of it.

[John 5:24] “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

[Luke 11:27-28] And it came to be, as He was saying this, a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which You sucked!”But He said, “Blessed rather are those hearing the Word of Elohim and watching over it!”

[Hebrews 5:8-9] “[T]hough being a Son, He learned obedience by what He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting deliverance to all those obeying Him.”

The above passage from Hebrews states that deliverance (salvation) is for those who obey him. This means that faith is tantamount to obedience. Anyone who guards the commands is obedient and righteous, and the one who is righteous is one with the Father as Christ is.

[John 17:11] “And I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Set-apart Father, guard them in Your Name which You have given Me, so that they might be one, as We are.”

[John 1:12-13] “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of Elohim, to those believing in His Name, who were born, not of blood nor of the desire of flesh nor of the desire of man, but of Elohim.”

[Romans 8:13-14] “For if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of Elohim, these are sons of Elohim.”

[Matthew 5:44-45] “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and persecuting you, so that you become sons of your Father in the heavens. Because He makes His sun rise on the wicked and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.”

We were also called to be perfect:

[Matthew 5:48] “Therefore, be perfect, as your Father in the heavens is perfect.”

[Matthew 19:21] “Yahushua said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven. And come, follow Me.”

So as you can see, righteousness is obedience, which is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, which is to guard the commands, which is to fulfill the Law. The only way to the Father is through obedience to the Word. Sin is disobedience, and no sinner can come to the Father because sinners are not living in Christ. If a sinner repents and turns to obedience then they become saved and are no longer in sin.

[John 8:10-11] “And Yahushua straightening up and seeing no one but the woman, said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Did no one condemn you?” And she said, “No one, Master.” And Yahushua said to her, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”

[1 John 3:4-10] “Everyone doing sin also does lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Everyone staying in Him does not sin. Everyone sinning has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one lead you astray. The one doing righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. The one doing sin is of the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of Elohim was manifested: to destroy the works of the devil. Everyone having been born of Elohim does not sin, because His seed stays in him, and he is powerless to sin, because he has been born of Elohim. In this the children of Elohim and the children of the devil are manifest: Everyone not doing righteousness is not of Elohim, neither the one not loving his brother.”

[Deuteronomy 25:16] “For all who do these, and all who do unrighteously, are an abomination to Yahweh your Elohim.”

[Psalm 5:3-5] “O Yahweh, in the morning You hear my voice; I present myself to You in the morning, And I look up. For You are not an El taking delight in wrong, Nor does evil dwell with You. The boasters do not stand before Your eyes; You hate all workers of wickedness.”

[Psalm 34:14-16 (1 Peter 3:10-12)] “Turn away from evil and do good; Seek peace, and pursue it. The eyes of Yahweh are on the righteous, And His ears unto their cry. The face of Yahweh is against evil-doers, To cut off their remembrance from the earth.”

[John 5:28-29] “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practised evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment.”

 

[MountainPine]

Part 2

What about the passages that support original sin? There are several of them, and we're going to examine every single one. The common interpretations of the following passages of scripture contradict the rest of the Bible as we will see. Let's start with the most common one quoted by most, 1 John 1:8-10.

“If we say that we have no sin, we are misleading ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to forgive us the sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.”

Verse 6 reads: “If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and are not doing the truth.“ So according to that, one cannot have fellowship with Christ while sinning. Sinning Christians who say they abide in Jesus are lying.

Verse 8 uses the present-tense and is referring to those having sinned prior to repenting. Verse 9 states that we are cleansed from unrighteousness (sin) and forgiven when we confess our sins; therefore, we cannot remain in sin once we've been cleansed otherwise we are still walking in darkness and will not be forgiven. Verse 10 uses the past-tense, meaning that we've once sinned but no longer sin because we have been cleansed.

Right afterwards John writes in verse 2:1 “My little children, I write this to you, so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Intercessor with the Father, Yahushua Messiah, a righteous One.“ Notice he says "IF any man sins..." meaning if they are sinners they can repent when they hear the Gospels. The “if” also implies that not everyone sins and it's only those who do sin who need to hear the Gospel so they can repent.

“And Yahushua answering, said to them, “Those who are well do not need a physician, but those who are sick. “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Luke 5:31-32


The second to the most common passages is Romans 3:23:

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”

This verse is a hyperbole. “All have sinned”, not “All sin”, and this is referring to mankind as a whole – men who were under the Law. And “come short of the glory of God” means we are imperfect, as we are not omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent like God, but being imperfect does not mean we are naturally sinful, or naturally disobedient. Did God design us to rebel against Him? We were created in the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26). Is God inherently sinful?

What does it mean to be “under the Law”?

[Romans 3:19-20] “And we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those who are in the Torah, so that every mouth might be stopped, and all the world come under judgment before Elohim. Therefore by works of Torah no flesh shall be declared right before Him, for by the Torah is the knowledge of sin.”

Those who sin are under the Law whether they observe the Law or not because the Law was written for sinners (1 Timothy 1:8-10). The one who is righteous fulfills the Law, but the one who sins is under the Law and will be judged by it, for sin is transgression against the Law.

The Law was written to reveal sin for those who sin (Exodus 20:20; Romans 3:20, 7:7), but the Law cannot reveal sin in the one who is righteous. So the only way to be free from the Law, the only way to be under favor (grace), is to not sin; to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh. (Romans 8).

[Romans 6:1-11] “What, then, shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, to let favour increase? Let it not be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were immersed into Messiah Yahushua were immersed into His death? We were therefore buried with Him through immersion into death, that as Messiah was raised from the dead by the esteem of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life. For if we have come to be grown together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also of the resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was impaled with Him, so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, to serve sin no longer. For he who has died has been made right from sin. And if we died with Messiah, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Messiah, having been raised from the dead, dies no more – death no longer rules over Him. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to Elohim. So you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to Elohim in Messiah Yahushua our Master.”


Romans 3:10-11 is also commonly used to support original sin:

Again, this is a hyperbole. “As it has been written, “There is none righteous, no, not one! There is no one who is understanding, there is none who is seeking Elohim.”

This passage is always taken out of context. Paul is quoting Psalm 14:2-3 because the same thing was going on in David's time, and it was relevant to his time too. But this only applies to the audience whom Paul wrote to. No one (the Romans) in that particular place and time was earnestly seeking God. (The Book of Romans was written to the Romans, for the Romans, and no one else).

To say that Romans 3:10-11 applies to every human that has lived and lives now is contrary to scripture. In Psalm 14 (where Paul is quoting from), verse 5 says “There they are in great fear, For Yahweh is with the generation of the righteous.” How can there be a "generation of the righteous" if "not one" does good?

In Rom 3:18 Paul quotes Psalms 36:1 - "There is no fear of God before his eyes..." First of all, the previous line states, "Transgression speaks to the wrong within his heart" So this is not talking about all men, but about ungodly men. Why would Paul say a few verses later (Romans 3:22) that the righteousness of God is upon all who have the faith of Christ?

If no one could be capable of seeking God, then why does the Old Testament say things like “But from there you shall seek Yahweh your Elohim, and shall find, when you search for Him with all your heart and with all your being.” (Deuteronomy 4:29), “I love those who love me, And those who earnestly seek me do find me.” (Proverbs 8:17), “And you shall seek Me, and shall find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13), etc.? Even Christ said that those who seek will find. (Matthew 7:7-8) Why would he say this if no one will ever seek God?


Many like to quote Romans 5:12:

“For this reason, even as through one man sin did enter into the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”

But this is referring to the influence of sin, or the idea of disobedience, not the “curse” of Adam (which has no basis in scripture.) It is not that we are born with sin; however, we are bred in it. Men were influenced by Adam and raised their children with those influences throughout the generations. Many, however, look over verse 19 which suggests through the influence of Christ, many are made righteous.

“For as through the disobedience of one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One many shall be made righteous.”


The next following verses are not stated often, but can be used in defense of original sin.

[Isaiah 64:6] “And all of us have become as one unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as soiled rags. And all of us fade like a leaf, and our crookednesses, like the wind, have taken us away.”

The book of Isaiah was written about Israel's apostasy. The passage and the whole chapter is only referring to Israel because they went whoring after other gods and would not repent.

“And there is no one who calls on Your Name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You; for You have hidden Your face from us, and have consumed us because of our crookednesses. And now, O Yahweh, You are our Father. We are the clay, and You our potter. And we are all the work of Your hand. Do not be wroth, O Yahweh, nor remember crookedness forever. See, please look, all of us are Your people! Your set-apart cities have become a wilderness, Zion has become a wilderness, Jerusalem a waste.” Isaiah 64:7-10


[Psalm 58:3] "The wrong have been estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.”

This single verse is taken out of context to “prove” that all babies are born sinful. Notice the passage reads, "go astray from birth." This indicates that they were not born astray, but went astray from birth. Verse 10 reads that the righteous do not go astray. So it is only the wicked who go astray, not the righteous. Logically, one cannot stray off of the right path if they were not there before. The only reason why someone would go astray is if they chose to do so either on their own volition or by social influences.


[Psalm 51:5] “See, I was brought forth in crookedness, And in sin my mother conceived me.”

This Psalm (the whole chapter) was written by David during his depression after his sin with Bathsheba. It is a figurative expression to describe the state of guilt he was in. A literal interpretation of this verse would be inconsistent with itself, the rest of the chapter, and the rest of the Bible. A literal interpretation would indicate that David is making an excuse for his sin, but the Psalm is remorseful and shows that he is humble and repentant for his sin. Scripture does not teach that God breaks our bones when we sin (Psalm 51:8). It does not teach that broken bones rejoice (Psalm 51:8). It does not teach that our sins are purged with hyssop (Psalm 51:7). It does not teach that babies speak and tell lies as soon as they are born (Psalm 58:3).

Remember, sin is transgression, not a substance. Babies cannot transgress against the Law. A child does not have any moral character at birth, rather morality comes when the child is aware of the difference between right and wrong. A child cannot sin without the awareness of good and evil and without knowing responsibility.

[Deuteronomy 1:39] “And your little ones and your children, who you say are for a prey, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they are going in there. And to them I give it, and they are to possess it.”

[Isaiah 7:16] “For before the Child knows to refuse evil and choose the good, the land that you dread is to be forsaken by both her sovereigns.”

 

[MountainPine]

Part 3

Some quote 1 Kings 8:46:

“When they sin against You – for there is no one who does not sin – and You become enraged with them an give them to the enemy, and they take them captive to the land of the enemy, far or near”

This verse is a hyperbole. Solomon was saying that none of the Israelites as a whole was innocent because of Israel's great apostasy. This doesn't mean that every single Israelite that lived there has sinned, and it doesn't means that they all were in a state of sin, as scripture records that the poor were left in the land —meaning those who didn't sin and were not punished by being taken into captivity (2 Kings 24:14, 25:12, Isaiah 14:32, Jeremiah 39:10). This does not suggest that anyone is born into sin either.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 is also often quoted:

“For there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and does not sin.”

Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon, who went apostate. If you have read the book, you can conclude that he was a sick-souled man. Take a look at verses 15 and 16:

“I have seen it all in my days of futility: There is a righteous one perishing in his righteousness, and there is a wrong one living long in his evil. Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise – why destroy yourself?”

From that example, you can see that Solomon contradicted himself. In verse 15 he says “There is a righteous one perishing in his righteousness” by which he is acknowledging that righteous men do exist, but then goes on to say “There is no righteous man on earth” in verse 20.

Ecclesiastes also contradicts the rest of the Bible as well. Here's one example:

[Ecclesiastes 1:18] “For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases suffering.”

[Proverbs 4:7-8] “The beginning of wisdom is: Get wisdom! And with all your getting, get understanding. Exalt her, and let her uplift you; She brings you esteem when you embrace her.”

Here's another example:

[Ecclesiastes 9:2] “It is the same for all: One event to the righteous and to the wrong; to the good, and to the clean, and to the unclean; and to the one slaughtering and to the one not slaughtering. As is the good one, so is the sinner; the one swearing as the one fearing an oath.”

[1 Samuel 26:23] And let Yahweh reward every man for his righteousness and his trustworthiness, for this day Yahweh gave you into my hand, but I would not stretch out my hand against the anointed of Yahweh.”

Ecclesiastes is a depressing and pessimistic book. All it talks about is the vanity of life and how futile the work of every man is. The rest of the Bible makes it clear that righteous work will be rewarded and wickedness will be punished. It is true to an extent that it is the same for everyone, both the righteous and the sinners end up dead; however, if one considers the resurrection of life and judgment prophesied by Daniel, Jesus, and John, then the passage of Ecclesiastes 9:2 is wrong. Ecclesiastes was written after Solomon's apostasy, and I personally do not accept it as valid canon, nor Songs of Songs/Solomon.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Solomon went apostate. Even if Solomon did say “for there is no one who does not sin” in reference to every man, it is invalid. Solomon was always evil as evidenced that he had a thousand consorts from other nations whom worshiped Molekh by sacrificing their children (Leviticus 18:21). It doesn't make any sense to suggest that Solomon was impotent or sterile and that his only recorded son, Rehoboam, was not his, considering his many wives. It is as clear as crystal that Solomon had many children and sacrificed the majority of them to Molekh at his own will. Israel's supposed "greatest and wisest" king was a psychotic filicidal cannibal. This is why he wouldn't have had a problem with killing the baby to settle the quarrel between the two women in 1 Kings 3.

The last two passages the seemingly support original sin are from Ephesians:

“among whom also we all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, as also the rest.” Ephesians 2:3

This is one of the main verses that is supposed to “prove” that man is born with a sinful nature. Verse 2 indicates that it was the way they walked. "Nature" in this context refers to a person's ethos characterized by repeated practice.

“that you put off – with regard to your former way of life – the old man, being corrupted according to the desires of the deceit” Ephesians 4:22

Ephesians 4:22 can possibly be used to defend sinful nature if it is quoted from the New Living Translation (which is corrupt), but this and other translations read “old man,” and this assumes that if one was previously sinful, then he should put away the “old man” and be renewed in the Spirit (verse 23) and put on the “renewed man” (verse 24). This command is only for those whose “old man” was sinful to begin with.

So as you can see, original sin is not a biblical doctrine, in fact scripture refutes it:

“Fathers are not put to death for their children, and children are not put to death for their fathers, each is to die for his own sin.” Deuteronomy 24:16

“And you said, ‘Why should the son not bear the crookedness of the father?’ But the son has done right-ruling and righteousness, he has guarded all My laws and he does them, he shall certainly live. “The being who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the crookedness of the father, nor the father bear the crookedness of the son. The righteousness of the righteous is upon himself, and the wrongness of the wrong is upon himself.” Ezekiel 18:19-20

So if original sin isn't Biblical, then where did it come from? Original sin was originally a Manichean doctrine. Manichaeism was a gnostic sect that was founded in the third century by Mani (aka Manes or Manichaeus) who claimed to be the Paraclete – 'the helper' promised by Christ in John 16:7, and also claimed to be the end of all prophets. Manichaeism, being similar to earlier gnostic sects such as Marcionism and Valentinianism, teaches that the Creator, whom they refer to as Ialdaboath the Demiurge, is evil and therefore the material universe is evil, thus our flesh is naturally corrupt. It teaches that our bodies are material prisons for our souls, and the goal was to free the trapped souls.

The god of Manichaeism was known as the King of Light and that Jesus was an evocation of him, whom they call the Luminous Jesus. The manifestations of the King of Light are reason, thinking, insight, speculation and reflection. Mani claimed this role of being the Luminous Jesus as he and his followers believed the Jesus was a spirit bestowed on anyone whom the King of Light chose to enlighten man. They did not believe that Jesus was a real person thus denying that he came in the flesh. The Marcionites who lived in the first century also denied the existence of the person of Jesus, and they were the antichrists whom John warned about in his epistles, and the "other apostles" that Paul said were preaching another gospel in 2 Corinthians 11. It was also believed that the Luminous Jesus was the reincarnation of the serpent in Genesis who "enlightened" Adam and Eve. (For proof of all of this, just Google the Manichean creation account.)

So there you have it. The doctrine of original sin is a Gnostic idea, not a Biblical one. Committing a sin does not make one a sinner. A sinner is someone who perpetually sins and uses passages like “all have sinned” to justify it. If an honest man commits a sin, then he realizes he made a mistake and repents. Since the Torah brings the awareness of sin, then it is important to learn what it says so one becomes aware and doesn't repeat his sin. (I'm not trying to proselytize, but only proving a point).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@MountainPine

I measured it this way. I can go a day without sinning. People have been on the Genus for doing a lot of things. I would not say it is impossible a person can go his whole life without sinning depending on: his religion, environment, influence of others and himself.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Hey, @MountainPine , a clarification if I could.
When the Bible refers to righteous people, does that mean 'without sin' or does it mean they have repented, and are doing the best they humanly can to avoid sin?

I've generally read it more as the latter, but (as you might guess) I'm far from a biblical scholar.

 

[MountainPine]

Hey, @MountainPine , a clarification if I could.
When the Bible refers to righteous people, does that mean 'without sin' or does it mean they have repented, and are doing the best they humanly can to avoid sin?

I've generally read it more as the latter, but (as you might guess) I'm far from a biblical scholar.

If someone is doing the best they can to avoid sin to the best of their ability then they will not sin. Being righteous is not about not doing, it's about doing—doing what God has commanded. One who earnestly seeks God's wisdom and applies it is righteous. The more someone is knowledgeable about God's precepts the less likely he will sin. People are bound to make mistakes. Like I said, when a righteous person slips up, he acknowledges it, fixes it, and doesn't repeat it. A sinner acknowledges his sin, but takes no action to fix it, just along as he goes to confession every week, then he considers himself "good". But there is a state where one can become conscious of every action and not slip up (James 1:4). Jesus achieved this, and so did Enoch and Elijah.

 

[McBell]

@MountainPine
Sin is going against the will/wishes of your chosen deity.
For those who do not have a chosen deity, they cannot, by the very definition of the word, sin.

This is not to mean I think those without a deity do not do bad things.

 

[RedDragon94]

[Genesis 6:9] – This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with Elohim.

[Genesis 15:6 (Romans 4:3)] – And he [Abram] believed in Yahweh, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.

These two verses seem to imply that they weren't righteous because they acted righteous (which I'm guessing is your definition of righteous?) but because they believed the right things. There is a big difference between works based righteousness and faith based righteousness. Works based righteousness is the prevailing mindset (although it's not the only one obviously) throughout the Old Testament because of Moses' law, and faith based righteousness is the prevailing mindset of the New because of Christ. The religious establishment has made faith based righteousness the normal view of Christians (unless you're Catholic, which is actually the bigger portion of Christianity), although the Jews still adhere to the Torah (instruction of the law of Moses and the Rabbis and scholars).

The only way to the Father is through obedience to the Word.

Can I suggest a religion to you?

 

[MountainPine]

There's is a difference in works (as in going through the motions, such as routine rituals) and faith-based works (actions that nourish your faith). Righteousness required faith + works (obedience), otherwise it isn't righteousness.

[James 2:14-26]
My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. You believe that Elohim is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief without the works is dead? Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq [Isaac] his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Elohim, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And he was called, “Elohim’s friend.” You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. In the same way, was not Raḥaḇ the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.

The religious establishment has made faith based righteousness the normal view of Christians (unless you're Catholic, which is actually the bigger portion of Christianity), although the Jews still adhere to the Torah (instruction of the law of Moses and the Rabbis and scholars).

I don't agree with that. Christians, especially Catholics, don't believe in righteousness at all; that only Christ (and Mary according to Catholics) is and ever was the only human in history that was and ever will be righteous. Christians are supposed to be adhering to the Torah and the Prophets as well as the Gospel and the Epistles. They just don't take Jesus' teachings seriously.

Can I suggest a religion to you?

No thanks. My knowledge is my religion.

 

[RedDragon94]

No thanks. My knowledge is my religion.

Alright. [edit] That's actually a good philosophy to have.

 

[RedDragon94]

I don't agree with that. Christians, especially Catholics, don't believe in righteousness at all; that only Christ (and Mary according to Catholics) is and ever was the only human in history that was and ever will be righteous. Christians are supposed to be adhering to the Torah and the Prophets as well as the Gospel and the Epistles. They just don't take Jesus' teachings seriously.

Faith based righteousness is what they call it. As you know Romans chapter 4 says a lot about that.

 

[Shiranui117]

@MountainPine, I would simply say that what you call a righteous person "slipping up" is what I and most other people would call "sinning". Now, I would agree with you in saying that the righteous and the sinners act differently when they sin--the righteous get back up, brush themselves off, ask for God's mercy and blessing, and keep trucking on. Sinners stay fallen in their sin. To quote Proverbs 24:16, "for the righteous falls seven times and rises again, but the wicked stumble in times of calamity." You yourself said in your explanation of 1 John that Jesus will forgive those who sin; simply committing a sin does not cut one off from Jesus or mean that one is not following Him, rather it means that one has made a mistake in following the path and strayed from it momentarily.

Is it theoretically possible that a mere human could live his entire life without sin? Sure. But in this fallen world, where people sin every day, and where we are brought up with sinful influence all around us, we are almost sure to sin because of the influences that work on us. You are right to say this:

Many like to quote Romans 5:12:

“For this reason, even as through one man sin did enter into the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”

But this is referring to the influence of sin, or the idea of disobedience, not the “curse” of Adam (which has no basis in scripture.) It is not that we are born with sin; however, we are bred in it. Men were influenced by Adam and raised their children with those influences throughout the generations. Many, however, look over verse 19 which suggests through the influence of Christ, many are made righteous.

“For as through the disobedience of one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One many shall be made righteous.”
. . .
Remember, sin is transgression, not a substance. Babies cannot transgress against the Law. A child does not have any moral character at birth, rather morality comes when the child is aware of the difference between right and wrong. A child cannot sin without the awareness of good and evil and without knowing responsibility.

 

[Shiranui117]

I don't agree with that. Christians, especially Catholics, don't believe in righteousness at all; that only Christ (and Mary according to Catholics) is and ever was the only human in history that was and ever will be righteous.

I should note that this is false. We do believe that people can be righteous (otherwise we would have no Saints). We just believe that one can be righteous without never having committed a single sin.

 

[Hendrick Laursen]

What I answer is somehow from the Islamic view.

The term "Ma´sūm" is used to denote being sinless, etc.

How a person reaches the level is much debated among philosophers, but we accept all of prophets to have received to such a level.

This will include Adam, Noah, ..., Muhammad.

The above mentioned arguments is one of the reasons that we consider testaments altered.
E.g. OT talks of Lot having incest with his daughters, and that's certainly a moral sin.

 

[RRex]

Can we live without sin?

No. The human animal is inherently evil.

Need proof? Watch a group of unsocialized children.

They are savages.

 

[Hendrick Laursen]

No. The human animal is inherently evil.

Need proof? Watch a group of unsocialized children.

They are savages.

This is not a legitimate answer to a "can".
Even one exception will make your sentence nuisance.

 

[RRex]

This is not a legitimate answer to a "can".
Even one exception will make your sentence nuisance.

No, it won't because the majority will still be eternally sinning animals.

It is human nature to succumb to temptation.

 

[Hawkins]

No, it won't because the majority will still be eternally sinning animals.

It is human nature to succumb to temptation.

This is under the influence of the devil. When the devil is removed it will be another situation.

 

[RRex]

This is under the influence of the devil. When the devil is removed it will be another situation.

That is one opinion, yes.

 

[MountainPine]

@MountainPine, I would simply say that what you call a righteous person "slipping up" is what I and most other people would call "sinning". Now, I would agree with you in saying that the righteous and the sinners act differently when they sin--the righteous get back up, brush themselves off, ask for God's mercy and blessing, and keep trucking on. Sinners stay fallen in their sin. To quote Proverbs 24:16, "for the righteous falls seven times and rises again, but the wicked stumble in times of calamity." You yourself said in your explanation of 1 John that Jesus will forgive those who sin; simply committing a sin does not cut one off from Jesus or mean that one is not following Him, rather it means that one has made a mistake in following the path and strayed from it momentarily.

There is a difference in making mistakes and sinning. Again, a sin is an act of disobedience to God's Law. I'm aware that most people believe that slipping up on mistake constitutes a sin, but I don't see the logic to that, especially considering that John testified that whoever is born of God ("born again") does not sin, and that anyone who does sin is of the devil (1 John 3:5-9). What I'm trying to convey is that all sins are mistakes, but not all mistakes are sins. The passage you quoted from Proverbs says "for the righteous falls seven times and rises again," not "for the righteous sins seven times and rises again," meaning the righteous are still bound to mistakes, but not bound to disobedience (sin). Not even Jesus was completely perfect. He was a Nazarite, and he went against his oath by approaching Lazarus' tomb, as Nazarites are forbidden to approach dead bodies (Numbers 6:6). Did Jesus make a mistake? Yes. Did he sin? No. He even said in Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:19, "Why do you call me good? There is no one good except God." He was saying that he wasn't flawless. Being flawed does not mean being in a state of sin. Furthermore, there is no "fallen state" that mankind is in because of Adam. That idea was invented by Augustine. It is not in the Bible. Being in a state of sin means one is rebellious and perpetually disobedient. That is not human nature. Being bound to mistakes is not a "fallen state", it means we were created to learn. No one is born like God.