1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Can We Imagine Spirituality Without Religion?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Sunstone, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    70,407
    Ratings:
    +28,367
    Religion:
    Erotic Dancing Girls
    Can we imagine spirituality -- the belief in and reverence for a spiritual world or reality -- without religion -- the culturally transmitted belief in and reverence for a spiritual world or reality?

    Why or why not?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    361
    Ratings:
    +173
    Religion:
    Loving Kindness
    I have no need to imagine that. Perhaps it was my mother’s influence, perhaps I was born this way, but what you suggest is natural for me.

    I can expand on that if you wish.
    We are going to have to be very flexible re what is spiritual though, or defining the term and experience could dominate the thread.
     
  3. Rival

    Rival Noachide
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    11,922
    Ratings:
    +12,931
    Religion:
    בת נח
    Of course. I think religion gives the community aspect many folks want, however.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Erebus

    Erebus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Messages:
    4,807
    Ratings:
    +1,438
    Religion:
    Pagan
    Yes... probably.

    Religion is a more structured and often community focused approach to a variety of concepts including spirituality. The belief in a spiritual world almost certainly came about prior to the existence of any organised religion. While this is a difficult one to definitively prove, it's generally believed that the earliest ancestors of what we'd now term religions stem from early animism and nature worship. If this is true, then there would have necessarily been a moment in which somebody conceived of these notions prior to sharing them.

    If you want to get more controversial, it's also possible that this animistic approach is at least somewhat instinctive. I've seen this hypothesis suggested on occasion but couldn't tell you how solid its foundation is. Nonetheless, if this is true (or even true of some people) then it would suggest that there's a concept of spirituality that can exist independently of cultural norms and that would be codified by religion rather than created by it.
     
  5. BSM1

    BSM1 Who's a good boy?

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2012
    Messages:
    16,482
    Ratings:
    +7,452
    Religion:
    Buddhistic Panenthetic Jesusonian
  6. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,780
    Ratings:
    +858
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    I have no idea what it feels like to be 'spiritual' even when I was religious. I don't think I would enjoy the experience.
     
  7. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,654
    Ratings:
    +12,610
    Religion:
    Druidry
    With how you are defining the terms?

    No.

    There is no human who lacks culturally transmitted beliefs that will invariably inform one's belief in and reference for a spiritual world or reality.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2008
    Messages:
    45,254
    Ratings:
    +13,953
    Religion:
    Advocate of letting go of theism. Buddhist with an emphasis on personal understanding.
    To answer your exact question: yes, we certainly can, and I assume that it happens fairly often and spontaneously.

    But it takes a considerable amount of cultural isolation for that to happen. And I am not sure that I agree with those definitions for the words.
     
  9. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    40,698
    Ratings:
    +3,253
    well.....I don't have a religion

    but I lean to say religion has dogmatic head nodding

    I believe in the Spirit of God
    the sons of God are spirit
    and we become spirit as we learn this life.....passing into spirit
     
  10. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    34,882
    Ratings:
    +12,993
    Religion:
    Love
    Yes. There are a growing number of "spiritual but not religious" folk. But this idea was present even hundreds of years ago. For example, Abu Said said something close to this albeit using different language.

    Until college and minaret have crumbled
    This holy work of ours will not be done.
    Until faith becomes rejection
    And rejection becomes belief
    There will be no true believer.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    361
    Ratings:
    +173
    Religion:
    Loving Kindness
    Because if religion - a culturally transmitted belief- is required, we have a circular reasoning problem.

    Who started the culturally transmitted belief ? If the belief had any kind of validity, some individual first realised it without religion.

    Having asked that question, some research I was doing yesterday comes to mind. It was about the origins of Daoism, and the Wikipedia article I read stated that -

    “According to the sinologists and historians Joseph Needham and Lu Gwei-djen, some early Daoists adapted censers for the religious and spiritual use of cannabis. The c. 570 Daoist encyclopedia Wushang Biyao (無上秘要 "Supreme Secret Essentials") recorded adding cannabis into ritual censers, and ...

    ...they suggest Yang Xi (330-c. 386), who wrote the Shangqing scriptures during alleged visitations by Daoist xian, was "aided almost certainly by cannabis" (1974: 150-151).”

    Everywhere I look, it’s the same story. Kykeon in Ancient Greece, soma in India, ayahuasca in South America, the Essenes use of amanita muscaria mushrooms, etc etc.

    Of course, drugs are exogenous triggers of specific neuroreceptors, which to me implies the likelihood of endogenous triggers.
     
    #11 Howard Is, Jul 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  12. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Messages:
    10,206
    Ratings:
    +3,369
    Religion:
    ☿ Mercuræn Buddhist & Ordained Pastafarian
    Yes, if there is another carrier for the symbol set other than cultural. (Jung might suggest the Collective Unconscious as the carrier.)
     
  13. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    361
    Ratings:
    +173
    Religion:
    Loving Kindness
    The conceptual frameworks inevitably acquired will affect a person’s cognition, but I don’t see that as an insurmountable barrier to spiritual life.
    From my perspective, spiritual life is much more than conditioned cognitive patterns.

    I did note that you said “With how you are defining the terms...”, so perhaps that is the issue.
     
  14. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,737
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    I agree. But as we grow, we can become more spiritual and less religious
     
  15. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    12,366
    Ratings:
    +5,895
    Religion:
    None
    Our old pal Einstein talked of that.

    Personally, I think "religion" just messes
    with a person's chance of connecting.
     
  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    12,366
    Ratings:
    +5,895
    Religion:
    None
    nonsense
     
  17. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    12,366
    Ratings:
    +5,895
    Religion:
    None
    This may be a different thread-topic but I was riding
    bicycle this along the East river, and thinking a bit-


    Audie talks to herself thus-

    Maybe a person cannot really understand spirituality,
    if they have no grasp of science...
    .

    Our friends who live in a fantasy world like
    Christian fundamentalism, what kind of real
    spirituality could that possibly have?
    Surely spirituality needs something besides
    illusion and self deception.

    If they understood physics, their world
    would evapourate. Then what?

    But what about you, Audie-girl? You dont
    even know what "spiritual" is. You talk
    about, often enough laugh at the
    scientific illiteracy of of some who claim
    to be "spiritual".

    What
    about you, Audie? If "spirituality"
    is anything more than woo woo, you are
    spiritually illiterate. Aren't you as busy
    denying and evading spiritual matters
    as the most moth eaten creationist is,
    ducking and dodging science?

    The fact that you even say "if" it is
    not just woo woo...!

    What was it that great men like Einstein
    saw, when it all came together and they
    were, what? A transcendental experience,
    a glimpse of an infinite mystery!

    What is that about? Can anyone get there
    with "religion" ignorant of the physical world,
    or, with the most sophisticated education in
    the the physical world, yet blind to the spiritual?


    Not being much of a thinker, I didnt get past that.




     
    #17 Audie, Jul 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  18. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,654
    Ratings:
    +12,610
    Religion:
    Druidry

    Data on religiosity across different age ranges disagrees with you. Regardless of how those terms are defined, I surmise that would depend on the person anyway.


    Personally, I find the word "spiritual" useless. I do not use it, and I do not distinguish between "spiritual" and "religious" in no small part because the alleged distinction between the two hinges upon Abrahamic religious norms that do not apply to me anyway.
     
  19. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    13,806
    Ratings:
    +4,800
    Religion:
    Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Seems to me the 'spiritual but not religious' types are on the ascendancy at this point in our culture. So, 'Yes' is my answer.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,533
    Ratings:
    +2,807
    What a world without i believes i dont believes and i am agnostics!? dimwits? A world where qualities are primary quantification is mere childern playing nothing more?

    Paradise but wow that would be rather like a miracle if you asked us.the brain. A whole world of properly functioning human brains no me no i... just experience and speak in alignment to that?


    Nope cant imagine that is way beyond what we the brain can imagine. Pay no attention to the wizard davidt way over there he is an idiot. We are running the show he is our brain puppet. "Your eyes I" give you away.
     
Loading...