Can we have sympathy both ways

[sun rise]

I like this post, and I think it brings up a good point, because I know how invested Christians are in their beliefs. Where is the line between freedom of religion and discrimination? I don't know, but personally I'm on the side of the guy who didn't sell his cupcakes to the gay couple in the court case. Obviously I disagree with his action, but I think he has a right to decide what type of events he gives his cakes to. In my opinion it was not discrimination, because he welcomes the gay couple to purchase anything from his store that they want, but because gay marriage is against his religious principles, he simply told them that he will not bake a cake for that particular event.

The line can be an extremely hard one to draw and changes over time such as the Civil War demonstrated when both sides quoted the Bible to prove that their view of slavery was correct.

So a debate at this level does not seem very productive to me because of the strongly held and clear beliefs. My question for a Christian would be "how does your stand align with the teachings and life of Jesus especially including the Sermon on the Mount"? And if someone is a Catholic, the question would also include the messages of Pope Francis.

Part of the reason I would rather have a discussion like that is for me to understand if someone's beliefs are consistent and even handed not only for LGBT folk but for others that are sinners in their view. For example, if there's a Catholic baker and a couple comes in to get married after a divorce, would the baker make the same choice about how the couple was treated?

I might still totally disagree and think that secular law should override religious beliefs in this particular instance. But I'd rather avoid the anger and name calling if at all possible.

 

[metis]

Yeah you're excited for marriage equality, but we just want to be protected just a little bit so we can live within our religious beliefs. It's a deep and spiritual thing for us and telling us that doesn't matter is wrong.

What difference does it make to you if someone wants to marry someone of their own sex? Does it change what you have to do in any kind of negative way?

Also, a reminder that we do have a "separation of church & state", so we should be wary of imposing our religious beliefs on others, especially when it really doesn't affect others negatively.

IOW, I couldn't care less whom you may go to bed with-- it's really none of my business.

 

[Nous]

Yes it hurts when your told something is a sin when you truly don't believe it is. But it also hurts to be called a bigot when there is truly no hate in your heart.

Why would someone believe that there is no animus in the hearts of those people who want to deny same-sex couples and their children the important rights of family that different-sex couples and their children enjoy?

 

[Nous]

Well, the cake bake Jack Phillips. He was more than happy to make the sheet cake

According to the Colorado Court of Appeals:

In July 2012, Craig and Mullins visited Masterpiece, a bakery in Lakewood, Colorado, and requested that Phillips design and create a cake to celebrate their same-sex wedding. Phillips declined, telling them that he does not create wedding cakes for same-sex weddings because of his religious beliefs, but advising Craig and Mullins that he would be happy to make and sell them any other baked goods. Craig and Mullins promptly left Masterpiece without discussing with Phillips any details of their wedding cake.​

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/craig_v_masterpiece_opinion_81315.pdf

As the court later explains, the fact that Phillips didn't even bother to inquire into the design of the wedding cake that Craig and Mullins were seeking argues against his claim of compelled expressive activity.

In any case, even regardless of that fact, Phillips clearly and overtly discriminated against Craig and Mullins by not offering them the same products and services he offered different-sex couples. That is a violation of Colorado's public accommmodations law. To date, every court that has heard such cases has upheld public accommodations laws when buisness-owners have discriminated against same-sex couples.

 

[QuestioningMind]

To LGBT people, can you stop calling all us christians on the right, and even some on the left, as bigots.

Yeah you're excited for marriage equality, but we just want to be protected just a little bit so we can live within our religious beliefs. It's a deep and spiritual thing for us and telling us that doesn't matter is wrong.

The vast majority of us aren't like those fundamentalist jerks. We DONT believe you should be discriminated in HOUSING EMPLOYMENT OR EVERYDAY SERVICES. When it comes to events we just want to talk it out.

Yes it hurts when your told something is a sin when you truly don't believe it is. But it also hurts to be called a bigot when there is truly no hate in your heart.

Can we just have some peace, sit down, and talk. Cause if I have to go another day with all this I might just give up everything.

I suspect that most LGBT folks would be happy to stop calling Christians bigots. But first Christians really need to stop calling LGBT people sinners or abominations simply because they have a different sexual orientation.

 

[SinSaber]

I'm not imposing beliefs on anyone. my words have not been about that. You just throw the real meaning aside and impose your own message on my behalf.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Why would someone believe that there is no animus in the hearts of those people who want to deny same-sex couples and their children the important rights of family that different-sex couples and their children enjoy?

I believe that many of the people who tell homosexuals that they are sinners, meaning immoral abominations in the eyes of a god god, however destructive that may be, do so without anger. I believe that that describes SinSaber, who seems like a decent person, and who I believe when he says he has no hatred.

It's their religion that is the culprit. It indoctrinates them with the hatreds of others while calling it love, and such people become the unwitting vectors of those hatreds without feeling the hatred themselves - what I previously referred to as cold bigotry.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I'm not imposing beliefs on anyone. my words have not been about that. You just throw the real meaning aside and impose your own message on my behalf.

Apparently, you left many of us with the impression that you disapprove of same sex marriage, which generally means disapproving of it being a legal option. If you would support reversing the recent legalization of same sex marriage, then you support imposing your beliefs on others.

But maybe all that you disapproved of was being called a bigot. You weren't clear about what you wanted to be protected from when you wrote,

"we just want to be protected just a little bit so we can live within our religious beliefs. It's a deep and spiritual thing for us and telling us that doesn't matter is wrong."

Not being called a bigot doesn't really qualify as a "deep and spiritual thing," so it was natural to assume that you were referring to the sanctity of marriage, and that you were claiming to need protection from loving same sex couples getting married.

Several posters indicated that they read you that way when they asked you how such marriages affect you. Metis referred to church-state separation issues. These all point to thinking that same sex marriage was what you needed protection from, not bigotry.

 

[Nous]

I believe that many of the people who tell homosexuals that they are sinners, meaning immoral abominations in the eyes of a god god, however destructive that may be, do so without anger.

That may be so. Indeed, lots of people have claimed that lots of entirely harmless acts are sins (e.g., planting one field with two different types of seeds; cutting one's hair).

But I still ask: Why would someone believe that there is no animus in the hearts of those people who want to deny same-sex couples and their children the important rights of family that different-sex couples and their children enjoy? After all, it certainly seems indicative of animus to oppose or try to prevent a loving, committed, responsible same-sex couple and their children from having the same legal and social privileges that even criminals and adulterers are allowed. No?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

@SinSaber, why is it so important for you to see homosexuality as a sin? I'm honestly asking.

 

[SinSaber]

@SinSaber, why is it so important for you to see homosexuality as a sin? I'm honestly asking.

Well in the Bible it says God presented woman to man and vice Vera's. That means the opposite sex, to both sexes, is a gift. Anything else is like asking God for the receipt

 

[McBell]

Well in the Bible it says God presented woman to man and vice Vera's. That means the opposite sex, to both sexes, is a gift. Anything else is like asking God for the receipt

Adam and Eve story is about the "fall" of man.

Trying to tie anything else to it is simply nonsense.

 

[SinSaber]

Adam and Eve story is about the "fall" of man.

Trying to tie anything else to it is simply nonsense.

You can say the same thing about the book of Ruth. That doesn't stop people from saying it's an approval of lesbianism.

 

[McBell]

You can say the same thing about the book of Ruth. That doesn't stop people from saying it's an approval of lesbianism.

There are people saying the book of Ruth is about the fall of man?
How odd.

And what does the book of Ruth have to do with the Adam and Eve story have nothing to do with marriage?

 

[sayak83]

You can say the same thing about the book of Ruth. That doesn't stop people from saying it's an approval of lesbianism.

Non Christians have no obligation to accept or follow anything in the Bible. They have every right to say this in a conversation, to call the Bible and its stricture as man made myths. Similarly Christians have the right to preach and proclaim their beliefs. If the act of hearing opposing viewpoints makes you depressed, do not participate. In no way can speaking what one believes and what one opposes as false and harmful beliefs be considered oppression. So

 

[SinSaber]

There are people saying the book of Ruth is about the fall of man?
How odd.

And what does the book of Ruth have to do with the Adam and Eve story have nothing to do with marriage?

I'm saying that people add meaning to things that aren't in the Bible all the time. Ruth is one of them. Also Johnathon and David

However, I think Genisis is different, because that was also how God intended things before sin entered the world.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

@SinSaber, why is it so important for you to see homosexuality as a sin?

Well in the Bible it says God presented woman to man and vice Vera's.

God presented woman to vice Vera? That sounds like an endorsement of homosexuality.

 

[SinSaber]

God presented woman to vice Vera? That sounds like an endorsement of homosexuality.

"Vice versa". it's called a typo

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well in the Bible it says God presented woman to man and vice Vera's. That means the opposite sex, to both sexes, is a gift. Anything else is like asking God for the receipt

Reproduction is a huge part of sex, yes. Have you ever thought that maybe God created gay people as a population control measure and for other reasons (research has shown that gay people helped the survival of the family by looking after their family members while remainjng childless themselves)? The majority of people will always be straight as it is. Reproduction was pushed so much by the ancient Hebrews because they were a tribal culture and life was harsh. Most babies probably didn't make it. We simply aren't living like that anymore.

 

[SinSaber]

Reproduction is a huge part of sex, yes. Have you ever thought that maybe God created gay people as a population control measure and for other reasons? The majority of people will always be straight as it is. Reproduction was pushed so much by the ancient Hebrews because they were a tribal culture and life was harsh. Most babies probably didn't make it. We simply aren't living like that anymore.

I wasn't talking about reproduction