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CAN TIME EXIST WITHOUT ENTROPY?

CAN TIME EXIST WITHOUT ENTROPY?

  • Yes (please explain)

    Votes: 4 44.4%
  • No....(please explain)

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • Other ..again please explain your response.

    Votes: 2 22.2%

  • Total voters
    9

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
The subjects other than religious or spiritual that interest me most concern 'time' and the nature of the universe. So last night just as I was falling to sleep I asked myself is entropy a requirement for time to exist, or would time exist without entropy, and if it did how could we measure it, or prove it existed? There are examples in nature that indicate when entropy is non existent time does not exist, or slows to the point that it seems not to exist. Best example; The event horizon of a black hole. To observers who exist in the entropy ridden universe that are watching a space ship cross the event horizon of a black hole, the space ship would seem to take eternity to cross it, frozen forever just before entering it. However to the astronauts aboard the ship, time would seem to progress at the normal rate as they passed through the event horizon and into the singularity. So I think I know the answer but I will save it until I hear from our scientific minded members, well if comment! Thanks for your eyeballs and use of your brain!
 

PureX

Veteran Member
As I understand it, time doesn't "exist". It is a conceptualized experience of existence, from our limited human perspective. Time is the conceptualized experience of movement through space.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
As I understand it, time doesn't "exist". It is a conceptualized experience of existence, from our limited human perspective. Time is the conceptualized experience of movement through space.

I would say that time is a conceptualized experience of change. I would be hard pressed to say thought is movement but it may be and with thought you can still experience time.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
As I understand it, time doesn't "exist". It is a conceptualized experience of existence, from our limited human perspective. Time is the conceptualized experience of movement through space.

Pssssst...don't tell Einstein that! Time is a dimension, and therefore it exists just as surely as east west and north does. However I have read several books that say time may not exist*. However for this thread it does exist. As I pointed out hinting that entropy may allow time to exist. Without entropy would time be in our vocabulary? I feel we humans create the illusion of time, by that I mean time as in 't' (lower case is the symbol I have seen used for intuitive time).


* (from the web)... Efforts to understand time below the Planck scale have led to an exceedingly strange juncture in physics. The problem, in brief, is that time may not exist at the most fundamental level of physical reality. If so, then what is time? And why is it so obviously and tyrannically omnipresent in our own experience? “The meaning of time has become terribly problematic in contemporary physics,” says Simon Saunders, a philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford. “The situation is so uncomfortable that by far the best thing to do is declare oneself an agnostic.” (from the web)


; {>
 
Last edited:

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The question seems to boil down to this: if you can't tell whether time is flowing or not because no change (ie no time-dependent action) is happening, is it correct to conclude that time has stopped?

My money's on, no. Time may exist even in a universe of max entropy and very very very very nearly 0 ºK, time's still around, the energy of the vacuum still feebly crackles (ie its events are apart in time, not all at once) and time didn't stop when the last proton decayed.

But I won't be around to settle my bet, whichever way it goes.
 
Last edited:

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
This is actually an incredibly deep question.

I think the issue is more of whether there can be a direction of time without entropy. Time itself is a dimension, a parameter. In some cases, it even develops out of the quantum foam. So, in that sense it can exist without entropy. The *direction* of time is a very different matter, though.

There are two aspects of time's arrow here: entropy and causality. So another question is whether causality can exist without entropy (or vice versa).

Entropy, though, is a macroscopic, not a microscopic phenomenon. At the lowest levels, there is not a clear arrow for time. In a sense, entropy encodes the loss of information when we look at things from a macroscopic level as opposed to the microscopic one. The second law then says that as time goes forward, there will always be a loss of information at the macroscopic level. And that seems to be related to causality; that events can only affect other events in their light cone.

Obviously, there is more pondering to be done.........
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The subjects other than religious or spiritual that interest me most concern 'time' and the nature of the universe. So last night just as I was falling to sleep I asked myself is entropy a requirement for time to exist, or would time exist without entropy, and if it did how could we measure it, or prove it existed? There are examples in nature that indicate when entropy is non existent time does not exist, or slows to the point that it seems not to exist. Best example; The event horizon of a black hole. To observers who exist in the entropy ridden universe that are watching a space ship cross the event horizon of a black hole, the space ship would seem to take eternity to cross it, frozen forever just before entering it. However to the astronauts aboard the ship, time would seem to progress at the normal rate as they passed through the event horizon and into the singularity. So I think I know the answer but I will save it until I hear from our scientific minded members, well if comment! Thanks for your eyeballs and use of your brain!
Are you implying if the 2nd law of thermodynamics were not true? For entropy can always be calculated in any system no matter what.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Great replies everyone just a note to say it might be a bit before I can reply to the queries addressed to me..
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The subjects other than religious or spiritual that interest me most concern 'time' and the nature of the universe. So last night just as I was falling to sleep I asked myself is entropy a requirement for time to exist, or would time exist without entropy, and if it did how could we measure it, or prove it existed? There are examples in nature that indicate when entropy is non existent time does not exist, or slows to the point that it seems not to exist. Best example; The event horizon of a black hole. To observers who exist in the entropy ridden universe that are watching a space ship cross the event horizon of a black hole, the space ship would seem to take eternity to cross it, frozen forever just before entering it. However to the astronauts aboard the ship, time would seem to progress at the normal rate as they passed through the event horizon and into the singularity. So I think I know the answer but I will save it until I hear from our scientific minded members, well if comment! Thanks for your eyeballs and use of your brain!

Time = change. Time is just a measure of change. Entropy is what causes change in our universe. It's the mechanism of change.

Without entropy, nothing in our universe would change so no time.

Without entropy you'd need some other mechanism for change like magic or willpower. Something with the ability to cause change.

IMO time only goes one direction since it is a measure of change. Even say if you could reverse entropy that would still be change.
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
I voted yes. Time can only be perceived when there is entropy/change, but say we have two particles, one which changes from time to time and one which doesn't - does time then only exist for the changing one? Why would it, they are in the same system. Take away the changing particle and observe only the unchanging. You can't "count" anymore how much time has passed by watching it, but that doesn't mean that no time has passed since removing one particle shouldn't make such a change.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
All "time" is is sequencing. If A is first and B is second, that involves "time", which can be measured in different ways, plus it can have affects on other dimensions.

"Entropy" really is another matter altogether.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
I would say that time is a conceptualized experience of change. I would be hard pressed to say thought is movement but it may be and with thought you can still experience time.


Yes that makes some sense, maybe our brain is the timepiece innards that extrapolate and gives meaning to time. Saying entropy is change from order to disorder is a bit outdated but remains correct enough for our discussion so far!
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Entropy is about the direction of time, not its existence.


Ok how does something that does not exist have an direction? I suppose you are speaking about the arrow of time which is a bane to physicists! According to physical law a glass should unbreak' as easily as it breaks....that is almost as weird as QT eh?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok how does something that does not exist have an direction? I suppose you are speaking about the arrow of time which is a bane to physicists! According to physical law a glass should unbreak' as easily as it breaks....that is almost as weird as QT eh?
Not really.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
The question seems to boil down to this: if you can't tell whether time is flowing or not because no change (ie no time-dependent action) is happening, is it correct to conclude that time has stopped?

My money's on, no. Time may exist even in a universe of max entropy and very very very very nearly 0 ºK, time's still around, the energy of the vacuum still feebly crackles (ie its events are apart in time, not all at once) and time didn't stop when the last proton decayed.
240px-GPB_circling_earth.jpg


Ten years ago I would have disagreed with you! I would have argued and been backed up by the physicists of the day that the natural of the universe is physical law etc is same here as it is on a galaxy a million light years from earth. However, recent observations have indicated that natural law may not be the same everywhere! Also on a separate but related point, what do you think about Einsteins account that T (uppercase T means non-intuitive time) is woven into the fabric of the universe and is the fourth dimension?

But I won't be around to settle my bet, whichever way it goes.

No offense, but according to mrmr's worldview you might be here to see the universe die a heat death, if that is the fate of our universe....

; {>
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Ok how does something that does not exist have an direction? I suppose you are speaking about the arrow of time which is a bane to physicists! According to physical law a glass should unbreak' as easily as it breaks....that is almost as weird as QT eh?
Let's suppose there's no entropy.
If we still have matter in motion, we can measure time.
But time could go backwards.

I know of no physical law about glasses behaving that way.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
This is actually an incredibly deep question.

I think the issue is more of whether there can be a direction of time without entropy. Time itself is a dimension, a parameter. In some cases, it even develops out of the quantum foam. So, in that sense it can exist without entropy. The *direction* of time is a very different matter, though.

There are two aspects of time's arrow here: entropy and causality. So another question is whether causality can exist without entropy (or vice versa).

Entropy, though, is a macroscopic, not a microscopic phenomenon. At the lowest levels, there is not a clear arrow for time. In a sense, entropy encodes the loss of information when we look at things from a macroscopic level as opposed to the microscopic one. The second law then says that as time goes forward, there will always be a loss of information at the macroscopic level. And that seems to be related to causality; that events can only affect other events in their light cone.

Obviously, there is more pondering to be done.........

Great reply! I happen to have made an argument that even though its very counter intuitive causality can indeed exist without time, and my head is still aching from the exchange. I was debating how a creator or God could operate 'before' or outside time to set the big bang in motion.




: {>
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I would say that time is a conceptualized experience of change. I would be hard pressed to say thought is movement but it may be and with thought you can still experience time.
I wouldn't argue with time being an aspect of our cognitive experience of change. However, if there were no experience of change (as motion/activity) apart from our cognition, itself, I doubt that we would cognate it at all.
 

MrMrdevincamus

Voice Of The Martyrs Supporter
Let's suppose there's no entropy.
If we still have matter in motion, we can measure time.
But time could go backwards.

I know of no physical law about glasses behaving that way.

I couldn't remember the web site that used the breaking glass example s\but I found this quickly; From the web; There's no fundamental law of nature that prevents us from un-breaking eggs. In fact, physics says that any event in our day-to-day lives could happen in reverse, at any time.

Well again there is an arrow of time but at the same time physicists say our current physical law does not forbid the arrow time pointing 'back' or 'forward'. Lastly the theory of time and of entropy are not yet well sorted out, I mean they are both theory and still are changing.
 
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