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Can this win God-proofs contest?

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
All we've gotten from our examination of the natural world so far are bigger and bigger guns to kill each other with, and the ability to practice our selfishness and greed with such abandon that we're about the wipe ourselves out, and turn the Earth in to a barren cinder. So you'll have to pardon me if I am not seeing the Great Advancements In Knowledge that you imagine to be coming from the worship of "objective reality", spawned by philosophical materialism.
More unfounded hyperbole. "All we've gotten?" No. Even just the realization that washing our hands can knock off germs and viruses we might otherwise infect ourselves with is HUGE, and was a "win" that we came to not by shrugging our shoulders and lamenting that "it's all subjective anyway", but instead by coming to realizations about the fundamental truths of the reality we inhabit, and using the information to our greatest advantage. I would hazard a guess that the washing of hands (including surgeons "scrubbing in" for surgery) has saved far more lives than have been taken by any single war. Even war-time conditions themselves improved greatly with the knowledge of germ presence and how to minimize it. And that's just hand-washing alone.

I'm sure those similarities in our experience give is the illusion that we "understand" what happening outside ourselves, because we can build similar imaginary conceptions of "reality" based on them. But, logically, that's just a great big example of confirmation bias.
Nope. Not even close. Going back to the same example from above, germs exist, and they can ravage the immune system of any of us. It isn't like I can just imagine that someone you see as sick is instead well. That DOESN'T work. That alone proves that there is a world of things "happening outside ourselves" that is entirely consistent between two observers. To claim otherwise is just crackpot theorizing of little to no actual value. In fact, I would argue that any sharing of items of completely subjective value (for example, what a given person thinks of a particular artwork) is an extremely minor "help" in any way. Of far more utility is the realization of what we do share, definitively, and how we can use that to our advantage, or avoid it because of its detriment. When we can share information like that, it is so many times greater a help to all of us than is your very particular opinion of something that only holds sway over men's imaginations.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
More unfounded hyperbole. "All we've gotten?" No. Even just the realization that washing our hands can knock off germs and viruses we might otherwise infect ourselves with is HUGE, and was a "win" that we came to not by shrugging our shoulders and lamenting that "it's all subjective anyway", but instead by coming to realizations about the fundamental truths of the reality we inhabit, and using the information to our greatest advantage. I would hazard a guess that the washing of hands (including surgeons "scrubbing in" for surgery) has saved far more lives than have been taken by any single war. Even war-time conditions themselves improved greatly with the knowledge of germ presence and how to minimize it. And that's just hand-washing alone.

Nope. Not even close. Going back to the same example from above, germs exist, and they can ravage the immune system of any of us. It isn't like I can just imagine that someone you see as sick is instead well. That DOESN'T work. That alone proves that there is a world of things "happening outside ourselves" that is entirely consistent between two observers. To claim otherwise is just crackpot theorizing of little to no actual value. In fact, I would argue that any sharing of items of completely subjective value (for example, what a given person thinks of a particular artwork) is an extremely minor "help" in any way. Of far more utility is the realization of what we do share, definitively, and how we can use that to our advantage, or avoid it because of its detriment. When we can share information like that, it is so many times greater a help to all of us than is your very particular opinion of something that only holds sway over men's imaginations.
Look, I get it. You believe that the "reality" you imagine in your mind and presume to be real, IS real, because it "works" for you, and others, and that everything else is just make-believe nonsense. And nothing I post is going to change your mind because you don't want to change your mind, and because you're going to work very hard at defending your presumptions right up until the day we humans render ourselves extinct because we were all just so damn sure we were rightious we all were.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Look, I get it. You believe that the "reality" you imagine in your mind and presume to be real, IS real, because it "works" for you, and others
So go ahead... demonstrate to me how you can alter your perception of reality such that you can defy something that I know to be shared between us. Like levitate yourself without a single implement in spite of gravity. Or put your hand onto a red-hot stove burner and feel no pain. Or act to take a pebble from me but instead let it pass through your hand as if there were no pebble. Oh wait... you mean gravity works on you just like it does me? You mean heat affects your body in much the same way as it does mine? You mean the pebble is as hard for you as it is for me? YOU MEAN THESE THINGS EXIST OUTSIDE OF BOTH OF OUR BODIES AND CANNOT BE ALTERED BY SUBJECTIVE "IMAGINING?" How can this be?!?!?!111?!?!1?!!?1?!1!?1?!?!?!?!?!1!?!?

, and that everything else is just make-believe nonsense.
A whole lot of what you say is.

And nothing I post is going to change your mind because you don't want to change your mind,
Your posts are mostly useless garbage. You have tried time and again to tell me how helpful all this personal imagining stuff is, and how useless details of the shared world are, and it all sounds so sophomoric, so hopeful, so fluffy and ridiculous.

and because you're going to work very hard at defending your presumptions right up until the day we humans render ourselves extinct because we were all just so damn sure we were rightious we all were.
Results FOR EVERYONE are produced by examining the world as it is experienced BY EVERYONE. Personal results may actually be able to be garnered from imagining certain things - like forgetting that you are sick as a dog, or having a placebo introduced to your regimen that you only believe is helping you. I do not deny those PERSONAL effects. But those things are not fundamental to the underlying reality we experience. Not even close. Never will be. There IS such a thing. You really can't deny it without digging yourself further into a hole that just about no one actually cares about.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
First Proof:
If a being knows everything, then He knows that Omniscient Being exists as well. Thus, Omniscient Being exists.

Second Proof:

If All-knowing Being does not exist, then the following would be true to say:
"All-knowing Being does not know anything." [As example: Dead bodies do not know math.]
We came to contradiction, because such Being is not All-knowing.
Thus, the All-knowing Being exists.

:eek:

That was just...astonishing.

Did you hurt yourself doing the mental contortions of circular reasoning?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
That's not a paradox, it's a failure to realise that an infinite series can have a finite sum. Each half journey takes half the time if you walk at constant speed, so the time taken is

T = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 .... = 1.
BUT you'll never get there. Simply take 14 steps.each going half the distance of the one before and see how far you get..

infinite regression of one halfi.png


See any out come emerging here?

.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
BUT you'll never get there. Simply take 14 steps.each going half the distance of the one before and see how far you get..

You will get there because the sum of an infinite series can be finite. You can never write out all the steps because you're considering ever decreasing amounts of time. At step n, the sum is 1 - 1/(2^n), so as n approaches infinity, the sum approaches 1. In the limit, the sum is 1. It's basically the same insight needed to do calculus, where you have to deal with values that approach zero.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You will get there because the sum of an infinite series can be finite. You can never write out all the steps because you're considering ever decreasing amounts of time.
One's ability or inability doesn't make a bit of difference. It's the principle that's at issue here. A cumulative ever regressing series of 1/2 will never achieve 1. It will only tend to achieve it.

At step n, the sum is 1 - 1/(2^n), so as n approaches infinity, the sum approaches 1. In the limit, the sum is 1. It's basically the same insight needed to do calculus, where you have to deal with values that approach zero.
Yup. And the telling word here is "approaches," not "achieves." So while limits are important in calculus, we aint doing calculus here, and Achilles will never beat the tortoise.

.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
One's ability or inability doesn't make a bit of difference. It's the principle that's at issue here. A cumulative ever regressing series of 1/2 will never achieve 1. It will only tend to achieve it.

This is true of the series but that's the whole point. The series is set up to not terminate but in reality the motion will because the motion itself contains the entire (infinite) series. If you can shrink things without limit you can fit an infinite number of them into a finite space.

There are exactly the same number of real numbers between 0 and 1 as there are between minus infinity and plus infinity. For that matter, there are actually more real numbers between 0 and 1 than there are integers between minus infinity and plus infinity.
 
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