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Featured Can the soul die?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Frank Goad, May 7, 2021.

  1. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    If you look at Ezekiel 18:20 in the kjv.It says the soul that sins it shall die.It doesn't say he or she will die.It says it shall die(referring to the soul).Also in James 5:20 it says the exact opposite.
     
    #1 Frank Goad, May 7, 2021
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  2. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I believe it means, the "spiritual Qualities" die. The soul will have spiritual qualities. If a Soul sinned, its spiritual qualities will die.

    For example Jesus said, Let dead bury their own dead.

    Although This "dead" is literally alive, but is called dead. It is a metaphor for "death of spiritual qualities", so the person is deaf, dumb and cannot understand.
    Ezekiel means the same.
     
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  3. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    I think the first question is ...

    Dos the soul exist?

    Only then can we worry about it dying.
     
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  4. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    did you read James 5:20 ?
     
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  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    How is what James says opposite to what Ezekiel says Frank?
     
  6. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    James doesn’t say the opposite. It tells, if one turns away from sin, his soul can be saved and avoid death.

    let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.
    James 5:20

    I think it is also good to know that Matthew confirms that soul can die:

    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Matt. 10:28
     
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  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but I wanted Frank to explain what opposites he saw, because from his perspective there are opposite. So I realize he does not understand what the text is saying, but wanted to see how he was reading it.
     
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  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    From your question, the first question would be what is the soul. That would have to be established first. Only then would one know if the soul exists or not.
     
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  9. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Agree.
    What is it?
     
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  10. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel 18:20
    King James Version

    20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    James 5:20
    King James Version

    20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    If you read my first post it says the soul that sinning will die.And it has a comma,To cut the sentence in half.Notice it doesn't say his or her soul.But the soul it's self will die.And in james it says you can stop a soul from dyeing.By converting a sinner from their sin.
     
  11. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

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    "The soul that sinneth, it shall surely die."
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for asking.
    Soul
    The original-language terms (Heb., neʹphesh [נֶפֶשׁ]; Gr., psy·kheʹ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.

    The connotations that the English “soul” commonly carries in the minds of most persons are not in agreement with the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words as used by the inspired Bible writers. This fact has steadily gained wider acknowledgment. Back in 1897, in the Journal of Biblical Literature (Vol. XVI, p. 30), Professor C. A. Briggs, as a result of detailed analysis of the use of neʹphesh, observed: “Soul in English usage at the present time conveys usually a very different meaning from נפש [neʹphesh] in Hebrew, and it is easy for the incautious reader to misinterpret.”
     
    #12 nPeace, May 7, 2021
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  13. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    nPeace.If you look three posts up from this post.I answered your question.:)
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, the soul cannot die because the soul is immortal. Only physical things die. The soul is not physical so it cannot die. Any scriptures that say that a soul dies mean that the soul will not not have eternal life, but that soul will still continue to exist forever in the spiritual world. For example:

    Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus shall gain eternal life. So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul because we lose eternal life. Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him and following in His way.
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What that means is that the soul that sins will not have eternal life. Let me explain.

    The soul is immortal so all souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies, but not all souls have eternal life (everlasting life). Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him. Baha'u'llah wrote the same thing about believing in Him and gaining eternal life.

    “The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2Some Answered Questions, p. 223

    Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, and although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies they are “as dead” compared to those souls who are close to God.

    “In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
    Some Answered Questions, p. 243
     
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  16. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Were is the bible verses in the bible that says right a soul is immortal?:confused:
     
    #16 Frank Goad, May 7, 2021
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The soul is not what Christians believe it is.
     
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Frank.
    Now I can see from Frank's "eyes". ;)
    One says the soul that is sinning will die.
    The other says the soul that stops sinning will not (@Frank Goad Sorry, forgot the not - edited) die.

    That's the same, not opposite.
    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    Read James carefully, perhaps try another translation.
    nwtsty James 5:20
    know that whoever turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save him from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
    Just replace him, with that soul.

    What is saved from death. Is it not the soul - the person?
    We have been through this before a number of times, haven't we?
    If you tell yourself the soul is the person, or life of the person, you will understand it, and not be having this problem.
    If you tell yourself, I don't want to accept that the soul is the person or the life of the person, but want to believe that there is something mysterious in the body, that can leave the body, and travel, and return, and does not die, your problem will continue, and you will never leave this topic, because you find some fascination with that idea.

    What is the sense though of wasting all your time and life, obsessed with one idea, when there are so many things to learn, that lead to knowledge that means life?

    If you like what JWs teach, would it not make more sense to try to study as much as you can on what the Bible teaches, so that you can know the truth about God, and how you can gain his approval, and use the precious time you have applying his word, and teaching others truth?
     
    #18 nPeace, May 7, 2021
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The Bible does not use the word immortal but it is implied in many verses. What do you think eternal life and everlasting life are?
    (John 3:16, John 3:36, John 17:3, 1 John 5:13, John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 4:13-14)

    Those verses do not refer to the life of the body because the body is mortal. The verses refer to the eternal life of soul because the soul is immortal.
     
  20. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Good question Frank, because the Bible says directly the soul dies. So that's a contradictory statement.
    Very good.
     
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