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Featured Can the faith of one religion discredit the faith of another?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by F1fan, Aug 12, 2021.

  1. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    On the discussion "Do atheists have faith" someone argued that faith is a reliable means to truth, to moral guidance, to know God's mind, etc.. I pointed out that there are examples of faithful people who do criminal things and justify it through their faith. My best example was the 9-11 hijackers who were following God's will to plan and attack numerous targets in the USA nearly 20 years ago. The person said their motivation wasn't real faith. I pointed out that faith as being argued has no real standards like reason and logic does. Faith is justified through the eye of the beholder, and anything goes.

    I asked what authority does this person have as a mortal, just like any atheist, that can discount the faith of another theist or religion. Since faith has no standards the person could offer nothing except his/her own belief, just as the 9-11 hijackers did.

    So how can one faith-based believer dispute the beliefs of some other faith-based believer if BOTH insist faith is reliable, yet offer no standards to determine the reliability of faith?
     
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  2. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    I do not think we fully can, or should dispute others belief, because it is their personal belief, just as the personal belief we hold our self.
    (I have fallen in this trap my self to many time)
     
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  3. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive, though I agree that some may treat it as such.

    I see it as kind of like a scale, much like I sometimes see politics like a scale. For example, it's one thing to be Right politically. It's another to be fascist, which is much further on the scale and such.
     
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  4. Martin

    Martin Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)

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    Logically they can't. But then sectarianism isn't a rational thing.
     
  5. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    I disagree, as disputing things could, in extreme scenarios, be a tool against potential extremism.
     
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  6. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    I welcome disagreement :)

    I think as a person we hold personal belief or disbelief and to accept others beleif or disbelief should be something one can do. I do not agree with OP starter on many aspect of religious practice, but i have to be respectful and let him have his lack of belief in what i personally believe.

    But it should also be possible to ask (are you sure about that in your belief) without the believer get angry (i learned from my own eperience of frustration)
     
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  7. CBM

    CBM Member

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    Yes, I think so.
    There can be certain standards of evidence in place for faith, and therefore such a thing as evidence based faith.
    It follows that if a faith/ belief based on reasonable evidence contradicts a faith based on inferior evidence in my eyes it would invalidate the second.
     
  8. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    The problem in the end is that there is no Objective Universal Truth, Proof or even evidence. So for such subjective standards there is no universal reliability.
     
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  9. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Religious faith is described as the antithesis to reason. It's used when reason cannot justify a desired belief.

    Now certainly there could be a concept that is accepted via faith that also happens to be reasonable, but that would be accidental, and the work would have to be shown.

    From a rational process we can assess whether any given religious concept is more probable and rational or complete nonsense or even criminal. But this is reason doing the work, not faith. Faith will justify any of it.
     
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  10. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Theists aren't claiming this. In fact most defending faith avoid evidence since many faith-based beliefs are contrary to facts and evidence.

    Can you give examples of evidence being used in any way by theists?

    If a person has reasonable evidence they use reason. Faith is used due to a lack of evidence.
     
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  11. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    I follow. So God through reason would be religious knowledge, if it exists - and not religious faith.

    I might have to agree.
     
  12. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Well, if you can solve Agrippa's Trilemma you will be the first one. Even reason, logic and evidence have limits and are not absolute, universal and objective for all of the everyday world.
     
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  13. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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  14. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    So "throw the baby out with the bathwater" argument. If we can't know absolute knowledge then why bother knowing anything?

    Many theists believe they have absolute knowledge, after all the 9-11 hijackers killed themselves doing God's will. You have to be damned certain you have absolute knowledge to die for your belief.

    The thing is we humans CAN know very much about what is true about how things are. We don't need to have any sort of God's eye view to know something reliably.
     
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  15. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    I read that on the discussion I referenced and I wasn't impressed that it was a useful or helpful issue. I don't remember the specifics but I do remember that it was more a dilemma of language and meaning than any real dilemma of fact.
     
  16. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    No, we can know in a limited sense in practice for the everyday world. But that knowledge is limited and doesn't work on everything in a positive sense.
    I will give you 3 variants:
    There is knowledge for everything.
    There is no knowledge at all.
    There is limited knowledge.

    So which one do you think I use?
     
  17. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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  18. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Helpful and useful are without evidence as they are subjective in the end.
     
  19. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    What do I get for guessing right? Or is it you don't know and need my guidance as a guru?

    You seem to be dancing around the issue of the discussion by distracting with other things.
     
  20. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Yes, faith has a reliability that is different from science/reason/logic, but it is different and neither worse or better. So I can't argue what you demand of me.
     
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