Can someone show me evidence outside the Bible that the Exodus actually happened?

[PureX]

Yet many Jews and Christians believe that it is factual.

Some do, most do not. Most understand that it's the ideals the stories represent that matter.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Convince of you what?

Egypt had slaves who built monuments?

Egypt was so devastated by incidents that another nation took them over militarily?

Egypt warred against ancient Israel?

The Hebrew scriptures teach the Hebrews were strangers in Egypt?

I think you're asking about miracles, what would prove a miracle occurred, do you think?

Even ignoring the miracle claims, the core story seems testable:

- the Jewish people were forcefully expelled from Israel to Egypt.

- then, over 430 years (give or take), the Jews lived in Egypt and some other society (non-Jewish Canaanites, presumably) moved in and dominated Israel.

- then about 2 million (IIRC) Jews left Egypt and occupied the Sinai peninsula for about 40 years.

- then, those 2 million-odd people settled in Israel, displacing the non-Jewish population that was ruling and living in the area.

If all that were true, we would expect to see two sharp discontinuities in the archaeological record in Israel about 500 years apart: one when the Jews left (and the Canaanites moved in) and one when the Jews came back (and the Canaanites were moved out).

Do we see these discontinuities? My understanding is that we don't. It's been ~15 years since I really did much reading on this, but at the time, what I read (mostly from Karen Armstrong) is that the archaeological record shows the same population living in Israel continuously through all of the times hypothesized for the Exodus, which indicates that the Jewish people emerged from the Canaanites and weren't an external group that pushed the Canaanites out.

Do you have any reliable sources that say differently?

 

[Sheldon]

myths are not intended to be taken as factual. They are intended to be taken as story-lessons. So claiming a myth is not factual is as irrelevant as claiming they are.

I have no problem accepting archaic societies dealt in myths and allegory, or that some of these were cobbled together in religious tomes. I do have a problem believing an omniscient omnipotent deity deals in myths and allegory, especially when for centuries those religious tomes have been, and in many cases still are, touted by adherents as the immutable words of an infallible deity, or even derived from it come to that.

 

[Sheldon]

Yet many Jews and Christians believe that it is factual.

Some do, most do not. Most understand that it's the ideals the stories represent that matter.

Oh I think I am going to disbelieve that claim, Hitchens's razor applied - slash....

 

[PureX]

I have no problem accepting archaic societies dealt in myths and allegory, or that some of these were cobbled together in religious tomes. I do have a problem believing an omniscient omnipotent deity deals in myths and allegory, especially when for centuries those religious tomes have been, and in many cases still are, touted by adherents as the immutable words of an infallible deity, or even derived from it come to that.

All cultures have their myths, including ours. Also, there is no reason to assume that people in the past were any less cognizant of their myths than we are today. The men who wrote the mythical stories that were eventually collected in the Bible did not write them to 'teach history'. They were written to inspire contemplation, discussion and debate. They were meant to keep men's minds focused on the immutability of their God through daily use. The biblical texts were not intended to provide answers, but to inspire difficult questions.

 

[PureX]

Oh I think I am going to disbelieve that claim, Hitchens's razor applied - slash....

Of course, your ignorance demands it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Even ignoring the miracle claims, the core story seems testable:

- the Jewish people were forcefully expelled from Israel to Egypt.

- then, over 430 years (give or take), the Jews lived in Egypt and some other society (non-Jewish Canaanites, presumably) moved in and dominated Israel.

- then about 2 million (IIRC) Jews left Egypt and occupied the Sinai peninsula for about 40 years.

- then, those 2 million-odd people settled in Israel, displacing the non-Jewish population that was ruling and living in the area.

If all that were true, we would expect to see two sharp discontinuities in the archaeological record in Israel about 500 years apart: one when the Jews left (and the Canaanites moved in) and one when the Jews came back (and the Canaanites were moved out).

Do we see these discontinuities? My understanding is that we don't. It's been ~15 years since I really did much reading on this, but at the time, what I read (mostly from Karen Armstrong) is that the archaeological record shows the same population living in Israel continuously through all of the times hypothesized for the Exodus, which indicates that the Jewish people emerged from the Canaanites and weren't an external group that pushed the Canaanites out.

Do you have any reliable sources that say differently?

I do, the Bible. Have you seen the paper online saying it was far less than 2 million people?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I do, the Bible.

I said reliable.

The Bible is the source of the claim. A claim itself can't really be its own support.

Have you seen the paper online saying it was far less than 2 million people?

No, I haven't.

If you're saying that the Bible is wrong on this point, fine by me - I'm not invested in the Bible being true - but it would raise sone questions... i.e. if the Bible is wrong on that point, why would we assume that it's right about the other points of the story?

 

[Sheldon]

et many Jews and Christians believe that it is factual.

Some do, most do not. Most understand that it's the ideals the stories represent that matter.

Oh I think I am going to disbelieve that claim, Hitchens's razor applied - slash....

Of course, your ignorance demands it.

Well I don't have your penchant for enthusiastically revelling in your ignorance to make grandiloquent unevidenced assumptions, but then I am an atheist.

 

[Sheldon]

All cultures have their myths, including ours. Also, there is no reason to assume that people in the past were any less cognizant of their myths than we are today. The men who wrote the mythical stories that were eventually collected in the Bible did not write them to 'teach history'. They were written to inspire contemplation, discussion and debate. They were meant to keep men's minds focused on the immutability of their God through daily use. The biblical texts were not intended to provide answers, but to inspire difficult questions.

Since you have ignored what I said, and seem to be answering some straw man you've created, here is my post again for clarity.

I have no problem accepting archaic societies dealt in myths and allegory, or that some of these were cobbled together in religious tomes. I do have a problem believing an omniscient omnipotent deity deals in myths and allegory, especially when for centuries those religious tomes have been, and in many cases still are, touted by adherents as the immutable words of an infallible deity, or even derived from it come to that.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I said reliable.

The Bible is the source of the claim. A claim itself can't really be its own support.



No, I haven't.

If you're saying that the Bible is wrong on this point, fine by me - I'm not invested in the Bible being true - but it would raise sone questions... i.e. if the Bible is wrong on that point, why would we assume that it's right about the other points of the story?

I said reliable.

The Bible is the source of the claim. A claim itself can't really be its own support.



No, I haven't.

If you're saying that the Bible is wrong on this point, fine by me - I'm not invested in the Bible being true - but it would raise sone questions... i.e. if the Bible is wrong on that point, why would we assume that it's right about the other points of the story?

I didn't say the Bible is wrong on that point.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I didn't say the Bible is wrong on that point.

My mistake. I assumed you were referring to the stuff I found online that claimed the Exodus was only 30,000 people or so.

So you agree with the Bible that the Exodus group included about 600,000 men, but not with the (extra-Biblical) extrapolation that this would mean about 2 million people when women and children are included?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Could all artifacts have disappeared if they only had bio-degradable objects left on the surface of the desert 3800 years ago?

They looted Egypt before leaving. Pretty sure they had supplies.

 

[Wandering Monk]

My mistake. I assumed you were referring to the stuff I found online that claimed the Exodus was only 30,000 people or so.

So you agree with the Bible that the Exodus group included about 600,000 men, but not with the (extra-Biblical) extrapolation that this would mean about 2 million people when women and children are included?

So, the argument goes like this: the Hebrew here is 'k'shesh me'ot eleph rag'li." The word for 'thousand' is 'eleph.' This word apparently can also refer to a military unit of a few hundred men. So, 600 eleph could be a significantly 600,000.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, the argument goes like this: the Hebrew here is 'k'shesh me'ot eleph rag'li." The word for 'thousand' is 'eleph.' This word apparently can also refer to a military unit of a few hundred men. So, 600 eleph could be a significantly 600,000.

Regardless of the exact number, the narrative doesn't make sense unless the group is large enough to displace the Canaanites and become the dominant culture once they arrive back in Israel.

 

[alypius]

You would need to answer why they can find older and smaller movements of tribes and yet no evidence is to be found of this one.

What is an example of an older and smaller movement of a tribe for which artifacts have been found?

 

[BilliardsBall]

My mistake. I assumed you were referring to the stuff I found online that claimed the Exodus was only 30,000 people or so.

So you agree with the Bible that the Exodus group included about 600,000 men, but not with the (extra-Biblical) extrapolation that this would mean about 2 million people when women and children are included?

I found an article online showing both the text was accurate and the numbers were smaller.

Regardless, it has been established that Egypt was a powerful empire that fell prey to a complete takeover, that Egypt owned slaves, that Israel was monotheist from ancient times, etc.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I found an article online showing both the text was accurate and the numbers were smaller.

Regardless, it has been established that Egypt was a powerful empire that fell prey to a complete takeover, that Egypt owned slaves, that Israel was monotheist from ancient times, etc.

That last point I bolded is incompatible with the Exodus narrative. That's what I'm getting at.

If the Exodus narrative were true, what we would see is:

- Israel becomes monotheistic.

- Israel has a ~500-year interlude of polytheism (when the Jews are enslaved in Egypt and the Canaanites are in charge).

- Israel becomes monotheistic again (when the Jews leave Egypt and displace the Canaanites).

 

[BilliardsBall]

That last point I bolded is incompatible with the Exodus narrative. That's what I'm getting at.

If the Exodus narrative were true, what we would see is:

- Israel becomes monotheistic.

- Israel has a ~500-year interlude of polytheism (when the Jews are enslaved in Egypt and the Canaanites are in charge).

- Israel becomes monotheistic again (when the Jews leave Egypt and displace the Canaanites).

I date the Exodus conservatively, about 1,500 BC - Israel is the most dug country in archaeology, it has been monotheist that long.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I date the Exodus conservatively, about 1,500 BC - Israel is the most dug country in archaeology, it has been monotheist that long.

Okay... so if that date and the Exodus story were both correct, what we would see is:

- Israel is solidly monotheistic well before 2000 BC
- From 2000 to 1500 BC, a new dynasty reverts everything back to polytheism
- in 1500 BC, a new, solidly monotheistic dynasty pushes out the polytheistic one

Does the evidence agree with this timeline?