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Can someone please present an argument for Episcopalian valid apostolic succession?

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
I am not sure if the services I attended were of the High Church tradition you mention. I'll see if I can find websites for each church and you can tell me.

As for the host being in two parts... what do you mean? Body and Blood? Bread and Wine? If that is the case, every Catholic church I've ever attended does that. If you are speaking of something else, that interests me.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I am not sure if the services I attended were of the High Church tradition you mention. I'll see if I can find websites for each church and you can tell me.

As for the host being in two parts... what do you mean? Body and Blood? Bread and Wine? If that is the case, every Catholic church I've ever attended does that. If you are speaking of something else, that interests me.

In Europe The catholic churches usually only give the bread especially in large congregations.

The church I attend is near Anglo catholic. It sometimes used insence, It has an Icon of Mary in the lady chapel, and honours the catholic Saints. However It is nothing like A High Church. Who take every thing to extreme.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
It is interesting though, that I never really see anything happen during the consecration of the wine, only the bread. So... perhaps the wine isn't even needed. But yeah, at least here in the US. All Catholic churches do both.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
It is interesting though, that I never really see anything happen during the consecration of the wine, only the bread. So... perhaps the wine isn't even needed. But yeah, at least here in the US. All Catholic churches do both.
From wiki answers..
As far as the words and liturgy are concerned, there is very little difference between the RC mass and an Anglican Communion service. Both services have the same elements, including a Gathering of People, Confession and Absolution, listening to scripture read, a sermon or homily, a Creed, Intercessionary prayers, The Peace, the Prayer of Consecration, The Breaking of Bread, the distribution of the bread and wine, a closing prayer of thanksgiving and a dismissal, but these eclipse the huge gulf that exists between the differences in belief that surround these elements, however.

The main differences are in belief surrounding the mass or the communion service. Roman Catholics believe in transubstantiation - the bread and wine actually turning into the body and blood of Christ. The catholic wing of the Anglican Church also has this belief, but the majority of Anglicans do not - instead believing in the bread and wine being symbolic of Christ's body and blood. Therefore, whereas in RC churches the blood and wine are reserved in a small cupboard called an aumbry (if in a wall) or a tabernacle (if in the altar itself) and is revered, in most Anglican Churches this is regarded almost as idolatry and the bread and wine are not revered or reserved, but consumed reverently at the end of each communion service.
Roman Catholics also regard the mass as the re-sacrifice of Jesus each time the mass is said. They justify this approach by the breaking of Christ's body (the bread) and the pouring out of Christ's blood (the wine), and, as they believe that the bread and wine are his body and blood, the resacrifice takes place each time it the bread is broken. However, Anglicans point to the scriptures which state that Christ's sacrifice was a once-and-for-all event and regard the mass as a re-sacrifice as against scripture and rather repugnant. Instead, the emphasis is placed on Jesus' words "do this in remembrance of me" and therefore they regard the communion service as a thanksgiving for his sacrifice and a memorial of his death and passion. Therefore, the subtle changes in words represent a huge difference in doctrine. As just one example, after the consecration of the bread and wine, the Anglican priest will say "Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world" - quoting scripture. However, the same phrase in the RC service reads "This is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world" as the priest raises the bread and wine. A difference of only one word, but a huge difference in belief. Moreover, whereas in the Anglican Church the people receive both the bread and wine as a memorial, in the RC church the people usually receive the bread alone, the wine reserved for the priest alone as an intercessor on behalf of the people.

What Anglicans believe and that is not mentioned above... is that we believe there is only one "Last supper" (Eucharist) and that during Eucharist Jesus is present in reality . Even during Jesus' Last supper, the Bread and wine were not the actual body and blood of Jesus as he was alive and offering them. He told us to do likewise in remembrance of him.
I would suggest the Catholics are confusing Jesus Death on the cross and the last supper.
The last supper was foretelling his death and how we should remember him.

This command is fulfilled in the Eucharist.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
Like I said, here in the US, all Catholic churches distribute both so I'm not sure Wikipedia is the most reliable source on that.

Here is an incomplete list (a couple of the churches I visited do not have websites)...
http://www.standrewspgh.org/
St. Paul's Episcopal Church
St. Alban's Church
Saint Martin's Anglican Church, Monroeville, PA

At these churches, I saw nothing happen during the consecration. Are any of them the "high church" tradition you had mentioned? If not, could you locate one near Pittsburgh, PA that I can go see?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Like I said, here in the US, all Catholic churches distribute both so I'm not sure Wikipedia is the most reliable source on that.

Here is an incomplete list (a couple of the churches I visited do not have websites)...
http://www.standrewspgh.org/
St. Paul's Episcopal Church
St. Alban's Church
Saint Martin's Anglican Church, Monroeville, PA

At these churches, I saw nothing happen during the consecration. Are any of them the "high church" tradition you had mentioned? If not, could you locate one near Pittsburgh, PA that I can go see?

I have looked at those church web sites and am some what confused by your numerous break away episcopal churches in the USA. at least one of them is a member of the Anglican Communion led by the Arch Bishop of Canterbury, and at least one other is a member of an Anglican communion set up by Nigerian Bishops. The other two do not make their loyalties clear.

There are many law suits Raging about who owns church property when a congregation breaks away from the Anglican Communion.

As an American you may be able to make more sense of this than I can. As this has always been the ongoing situation for the older established churches in the USA.

Though I have given in older Anglican threads, complete lists of those churches in and out of the Anglican Communion.

a simplistic division is that those in the Communion, Ordain women and those answering to Nigerian Bishops do not...

As to Identifying a High Church (Anglo Catholic) in the USA sems a task too far, though I am sure any Anglican minister could point you in the right direction.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Oy... then I think I'll just stick with the Catholic church. I at least know what to expect. :D

If I were in the USA I would be confused too.

But it looks like there are some serious rifts among the american catholics as well.

The problem amongst the episcopals is that some of the splits are much of a size and all claim to be the real IT.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
It's quite easy to find Catholic churches that are still under the Holy See though, by going through the Dioceses. I looked up the Pittsburgh Episcopal and Anglican Diocese, but still couldn't find much info... maybe you can...
The Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh - of The Episcopal Church in the United States of America
Anglican Diocese of Pittsburgh

That is one of the recent breakaway churches however,The Episcopal Church in the United States of America. has asked the Anglican Communion if they can Join. But there is the problem in that the official ECUSA is already a member.

They the "Pitsberg church" are likely to be anti Gay and women priests and be more traditional than than ECUSA churches (that is why they broke away, that, and the fact that the ECUSA Primate is a female bishop)
 

ninerbuff

godless wonder
Hey everyone. I just left the Catholic Church and I am considering going to the Episcopal Church. I am a pretty liberal Christian but I don't really want to give up on the Sacraments. Anyway, one thing I was taught as a Catholic is that Episcopalians and Anglicans do not have valid apostolic succession. If you could please provide some sort of refutation for this (whether it be an article or whatever), I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
Either go back or find another religion. You're either catholic or not. There is no compromise. I gave it up (after researching the church origins and rituals) and haven't looked back. Atheism has been so great for me the last 26 years.:yes:
 
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