Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Katzpur]

Can you look around you at the people in your congregation or even at the leaders and say for certain you know absolutely all there is to know about them?

I would assume not. Therefore the church can only really exist spiritually insofar as you are able to prove. Our faith is in the unseen, not in the seen, or at least it is supposed to be.
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Okay, I see what you're saying. I agree.

 

[Muffled]

You've got the wrong definition of "mythical."

The church is the body of Christ, who is fully God.

an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true
: a story that was told in an ancient culture to explain a practice, belief, or natural occurrence
(Webster's Dictionary)

I believe, since God is speaking it is true and not myth by this 1st definition.

I believe since it is not a story to explain a belief it is not a myth by the 2nd definition.

I beleive the definition that I saw was a writing that could not be authenticated ie one would not know whether the source was writing history or fiction. For instance the Illiad was long thought to be fiction because Troy did not exist and then someone found Troy. That only partially authenticates the writing because writers of fiction often include historical events.

I believe some people have the view that unusual events like a burning bush that does not burn up must indicate a work of fiction but I believe life is often stranger than fiction.

I believe a work of fiction usually identifies itself as such but there are times when it doesn't.

 

[Muffled]

Good start, but not quite. It began when Jesus called his first disciples.

I can understand why one would think so because of the presence of Jesus but I view it as a temple because there is no significant difference between the presence of God among them and the presence of God in the OT temples. I believe it is the presence of the Paraclete that makes a church.

 

[sojourner]

an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true
: a story that was told in an ancient culture to explain a practice, belief, or natural occurrence
(Webster's Dictionary)

I believe, since God is speaking it is true and not myth by this 1st definition.

I believe since it is not a story to explain a belief it is not a myth by the 2nd definition.

I beleive the definition that I saw was a writing that could not be authenticated ie one would not know whether the source was writing history or fiction. For instance the Illiad was long thought to be fiction because Troy did not exist and then someone found Troy. That only partially authenticates the writing because writers of fiction often include historical events.

I believe some people have the view that unusual events like a burning bush that does not burn up must indicate a work of fiction but I believe life is often stranger than fiction.

I believe a work of fiction usually identifies itself as such but there are times when it doesn't.

That's fine, except we're not dealing with secular definitions here. We're dealing with theological and scholastic definitions. In the theological/scholastic sense, "mythic" means a metaphorical or larger-than-life story that conveys a truth. Unfortunately, no matter what you may believe about the factual veracity of the accounts, they are mythic in nature.

 

[sojourner]

I can understand why one would think so because of the presence of Jesus but I view it as a temple because there is no significant difference between the presence of God among them and the presence of God in the OT temples. I believe it is the presence of the Paraclete that makes a church.

So, God in their midst =/= God in their midst?

 

[TheInfiniteLight]

I was talking to a Lutheran Pastor the other day and he said God provided the greatest gift when he offered himself up as Jesus on the cross. But from what I read in the Bible, when Jesus was on the cross, he spoke to God in heaven. How then can he be God at the same time? Please explain. Thanks

He speaks to God in Heaven for your hearing and seeing--that scripture may be fulfilled as in the psalms. God why have you forsaken me...Everything in scripture was fulfilled by Jesus' presence upon the earth. There is not one thing in scripture that is not fulfilled by the Spirit of prophecy (Jesus). God speaks to God so that you may see that he is in fact God.

 

[moorea944]

.

Everything in scripture was fulfilled by Jesus' presence upon the earth.

No, not yet. It will be when he returns. We even read that in Hebrews 11. When he returns to earth, then everything will be fulfilled. Why do you say "everything"? Just curious. Or are you just assuming that....

God speaks to God so that you may see that he is in fact God.

What? That doent even make sense.... You mean Jesus speaks to God..... There you go.

 

[TheInfiniteLight]

No, not yet. It will be when he returns. We even read that in Hebrews 11. When he returns to earth, then everything will be fulfilled. Why do you say "everything"? Just curious. Or are you just assuming that....


What? That doent even make sense.... You mean Jesus speaks to God..... There you go.

The fulfillment Jesus came for was for the forgiveness of sins. It is His sacrifice, His life that fulfills His will. Don't you agree that His will has been fulfilled upon the earth through His sacrifice? Don't you know what you seek has already come? That is His fulfillment--that all sins are forgiven by God through His Presence.

Jesus is God. God speaks to God for your benefit, for your hearing--that scripture has been fulfilled. God becomes as the man of sorrows, in Isaiah 53, and he says God why have you forsaken me?--which is from Psalms. He says that for your benefit so that you know scripture has been fulfilled.

 

[moorea944]

The fulfillment Jesus came for was for the forgiveness of sins. It is His sacrifice, His life that fulfills His will. Don't you agree that His will has been fulfilled upon the earth through His sacrifice?

Now your changing things. You first stated that everything has been fulfilled. It hasnt.

Don't you know what you seek has already come?

How do you know what I seek... I seek the return of Christ and the Kingdom of God to be set up at his return.

Jesus is God. God speaks to God for your benefit, for your hearing--that scripture has been fulfilled. God becomes as the man of sorrows, in Isaiah 53, and he says God why have you forsaken me?--which is from Psalms. He says that for your benefit so that you know scripture has been fulfilled.

Do you actually read what you write? Jesus is not God. God doesnt talk to God. God becomes a man of sorrows? Isaiah is talking about the coming Messiah. Not God.

 

[TheInfiniteLight]

Now your changing things. You first stated that everything has been fulfilled. It hasnt.



How do you know what I seek... I seek the return of Christ and the Kingdom of God to be set up at his return.



Do you actually read what you write? Jesus is not God. God doesnt talk to God. God becomes a man of sorrows? Isaiah is talking about the coming Messiah. Not God.

How could you be Christian if you don't think Jesus is God? Everything written in the scripture is about Jesus. Christ fulfills everything in scripture because everything written about Him is in scripture. I see that you are Jewish. So none of this makes sense.

 

[moorea944]

How could you be Christian if you don't think Jesus is God? Everything written in the scripture is about Jesus. Christ fulfills everything in scripture because everything written about Him is in scripture. I see that you are Jewish. So none of this makes sense.

Well, first of all, I"m not Jewish. Second, you have to understand that the trinity is man-made, not biblical. Is there a verse that says Jesus is God? I would like to see it. Trinitarians take scripture out of context to make it fit into their beliefs. Jesus is the son of God and the son of man. God is his Father AND God. Very simple. Out of all the words in the bible, why do you have to "make up" words like, trinity, God the son, God the Holy Spirit. I dont understand that. Why cant you just use the words IN the bible?

 

[Muffled]

That's fine, except we're not dealing with secular definitions here. We're dealing with theological and scholastic definitions. In the theological/scholastic sense, "mythic" means a metaphorical or larger-than-life story that conveys a truth. Unfortunately, no matter what you may believe about the factual veracity of the accounts, they are mythic in nature.

I believe the Trinity is not a metaphor.

I don't believe the Trinity is a story. I also believe that it is not larger than life since life incorporates a lot of things.

 

[Muffled]

So, God in their midst =/= God in their midst?

I believe God in the midst is not the same thing as God in residence.

 

[Muffled]

No, not yet. It will be when he returns. We even read that in Hebrews 11. When he returns to earth, then everything will be fulfilled. Why do you say "everything"? Just curious. Or are you just assuming that....


What? That doent even make sense.... You mean Jesus speaks to God..... There you go.

I believe of course it makes sense I do it all the time.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Is there a verse that says Jesus is God? I would like to see it.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." - Saint John recalls the first verse of Genesis here, saying that at the time of creation, the Word, that is the Incarnate Word / Jesus, was already with God and was God.

John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And he quotes Jesus:
John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."
John 14:9 "...He that has seen me has seen the Father."

 

[Nada]

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." - Saint John recalls the first verse of Genesis here, saying that at the time of creation, the Word, that is the Incarnate Word / Jesus, was already with God and was God.

John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And he quotes Jesus:
John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."
John 14:9 "...He that has seen me has seen the Father."

In those last two passages it never mentions a third party.When Jesus speaks of he and the Father being one, there is never a mention of the holy spirit in this union.Jesus is saying that he is in a spiritual union with his Father.Not a literal physical one.The holy scriptures describes the holy spirit as the power of God.This is the same force that created the entire universe and inspired the holy writings,according to the HS.If one is to believe it is a literal union, and it literally means that Jesus, the holy spirit and God the Father, are one,then it would mean that these people mentioned in John 17:21 are part of the Trinity too.

John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

So we can clearly see that it means a spiritual union with God the Father as the head,Jesus Christ as the Son and the true followers of God as the assembly.This is the spiritual union it speaks of.We know that all of these mentioned cannot physically be in each other.

Notice also how the holy spirit is never mentioned in this union.It only mentions God,Jesus and the followers.This is because the holy spirit is not a "person" that is part of the union.The holy spirit is the power from God that makes all this possible.

 

[Nada]

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." - Saint John recalls the first verse of Genesis here, saying that at the time of creation, the Word, that is the Incarnate Word / Jesus, was already with God and was God.

John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And he quotes Jesus:
John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."
John 14:9 "...He that has seen me has seen the Father."

Here is some interesting reading.Explanations from all kinds of sources.

"What is the origin of the Trinity doctrine?

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899."

Trinity LIBRARY

 

[Nada]

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." - Saint John recalls the first verse of Genesis here, saying that at the time of creation, the Word, that is the Incarnate Word / Jesus, was already with God and was God.

John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And he quotes Jesus:
John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."
John 14:9 "...He that has seen me has seen the Father."

Jesus is not God.God the Almighty does not have a God.That is what Almighty means.He is one.He is above all.Jesus makes this very clear.Jesus tells us that he has a God.


John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Jesus is saying he has a God.He never says he is God.

 

[moorea944]

[QUOTE="Forever_Catholic, post: 4327456, member: 56677" [/QUOTE]


Ok, let's start by saying this.... Your bringing your beliefs into the bible. I"ll show you.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." - Saint John recalls the first verse of Genesis here, saying that at the time of creation, the Word, that is the Incarnate Word / Jesus, was already with God and was God.

Actually, it doesnt. The "Word" is not Jesus. It is the Word of God. God's Word was in the beginning. It doesnt talk about Jesus unto verse 14. The word "Word" is LOGOS. Logos means, someone's thoughts, reasons or plans. Then in 14, the logos or God's Word, became flesh. But it doent matter what I say, it's still going to be wrong, because you believe the Jesus is God. And that totally degrades our Creator.

John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

It doesnt say, 'who came from the Father", it says, "the glory as of the only begotten of the Father". But anywho, I agree with verse 14. God's Word, His plans and reason and thought and His Word,, became flesh. I think your reading it as Jesus was already in Heaven from the beginning. He wasnt. He was born.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Again, in the org. language, it doesnt say that. It says, "For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree."

And he quotes Jesus:
John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."

Yes, I agree with that one!! Jesus is saying that he is in sync with his Father. He is doing his Father' s will. He is doing what his FAther wants him to do. He is NOT saying that he is God.

John 14:9 "...He that has seen me has seen the Father."

Yes, absolutely!!! Jesus is manifesting his Father. God was "in" His son. Working "through" His son. Jesus manifested his father's charator perfectly! He is NOT saying he is God. You say that because you believe that Jesus is God.

1 Col. This shows us that God is the God and Father of Jesus. They are not co-equal. 1 Cor 11, shows us that God is the head or leader of Jesus.
So many verses in scripture that tell us that Jesus is not God.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Notice also how the holy spirit is never mentioned in this union.It only mentions God,Jesus and the followers.This is because the holy spirit is not a "person" that is part of the union.The holy spirit is the power from God that makes all this possible.

Jesus is not God.God the Almighty does not have a God.

God is Father. Son, and Holy Spirit, as in Matthew 28:19 where Jesus says "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

The Holy Spirit is not a just a force. He is a person of the Trinity who is personified in his will, intellect, emotions, and actions. He was personified when he spoke to John the Baptist and when he alighted on Jesus in the form of a dove at his baptism, as he told John he would. At this moment, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were all distinctly evident in the same place at the same time. The Holy Spirit was also clearly personified on the day of Pentecost.

Jesus did not speak of the Holy Spirit as a thing or a force, but as "he," "him," and with various titles. He told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would be an advocate or comforter to them and to the Church (depending on how "paraclete" is translated). He said "the world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."