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Featured Can secularism be oppressive to any religious believer?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by F1fan, Aug 24, 2021.

  1. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    "Atheist secular religion" makes no sense. A religion is a belief system. Atheism is neither a system nor a belief; atheism is a lack of belief.
    I'd hazard to guess that you, M. cOLTER, lack belief in leprechauns. Is your a-leprechaunism in any way a religion? Is your a-leprechaunism not synonymous with my a-theism?
    Do you believe that your car moving automotively, water coming out of your tap or falling from the sky, or a hammer falling to the ground when you drop it, are effected by God -- or can they be explained by 'godless' physics, chemistry, engineering?
    Very few secularists are anti-religion, nor is secularism a religion. Most are neutral on the subject of religion. Indeed, the subject almost never comes up.

    How is a lack of belief in religion -- formal or otherwise, -- or unicorns, for that matter, not a lack of belief?
    How is secularism a religion?
    Godless secularism? -- I'm assuming you mean the belief that things can happen by themselves, without direct intervention of any invisible personage?
    Secularism isn't an investigative modality. It's not out to prove anything.
    Secularists haven't disproved the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Easter Bunny, or unicorns, either.

    Things work without resort to religion or magical thinking. Religion seems unnecessary; it has no demonstrable function in practical affairs, so why should anyone take it into consideration in everyday affairs?
     
    #101 Valjean, Aug 25, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
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  2. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    How is atheistic science different from regular science? How is atheistic carpentry, driving, or cooking different from theistic carpentry, driving or cooking?

    Science doesn't say everyone should just shut up and accept. The whole scientific method demands criticism, and attempts to disprove ideas and theories. Science encourages everyone to attack it -- especially other scientists. That's how it works. Science attempts to disprove its ideas. That's why the ones that stand are so productive.

    Again: How is a claim that life occurred mechanically, by physics and chemistry rather than magic, a religious belief?

    cOLTER, I don't believe you understand what science is. How do you see it as a religious belief, as opposed to an evidence-based belief?
    In no observation of anything, or investigation of any phenomenon, has magic ever been found a necessary component.

    Life developed -- can we agree on that? You believe it poofed into existence by magic. I believe it developed like everything else we've ever seen -- step by step, through ordinary chemistry and physics.
    The laws and constants of physics just are, they operate automatically, with no intention needed.
     
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  3. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Every time they have a voice in society, things go wrong.
     
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  4. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    This tells us what YOU think it isn't, you don't bother to explain what the heart of religion is. Be sure it applies to all forms of religion from liberal Universalists to the 9-11 hijackers.

    So how would you categorize the laws Oklahoma state officials passed to ban Sharia Law? Is that dismissing or opposing? Are these republicans an evil government?
     
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  5. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    What atheistic beliefs masquerading as fact are being taught? What's the difference between fact and "atheistic belief?"
    So because we don't yet have all the facts of abiogenesis we should not expect a natural mechanism? When have we ever discovered an unnatural, magical mechanism? Considering this, isn't expecting a natural mechanism reasonable?
    No magical mechanism has ever been demonstrated, for anything. Isn't not seeking a magical mechanism reasonable?
    And the Miller-Urey experiments, and the many subsequent experiments, were very revelatory, weren't they?

    Everything ever investigated has been found to have a natural explanation. No magic has ever been discovered. It's reasonable to investigate mechanism rather than agency, when no hint of agency has ever been found.
     
  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    There is no center about which all religion revolves, since the name of a religion describes only what a religion looks like...what people seem to be doing...bowing or whatever. Its what outsiders think of the group -- not what the group actually is. Its like the address on a house or the cover on a book. The books might look the same and made out of paper, but they aren't the same. They aren't about the same things.

    Its the first time anyone mentioned that in this thread, and I'm unfamiliar with this situation in Oklahoma. In terms of what I am talking about it sounds like the Oklahoma law makers have decided that sharia is more than beliefs and is some sort of competing legal system. That is part of the danger when people see a religion for what it does rather than seeing it as a belief system.
     
  7. Kfox

    Kfox Well-Known Member

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    Atheism is not about making truth claims. To remain skeptical of a (theists) truth claim is the opposite of a truth claim.

    No; to remain neutral is not a stance. In this case neutral is equal to silence.
    neutral
     
    #107 Kfox, Aug 25, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
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  8. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    Good point.
     
  9. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    I thought that Fox news was biased for Republicans, and they were for the Religious Right (not restricting religious people).

    I'm glad that I asked you to clarify your name, so now I know what it means.
     
  10. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    Forcing Iraqi and Afghan women to get rid of burkas makes them look more American, but doesn't change their underlying beliefs. From their standpoint, women are judged by their character, rather than their appearance, when that appearance is covered up. Thus, it is more liberating than Americans realize.

    Many foreign countries balk at US legal decisions. For example, they felt that OJ Simpson got away with murder. They look at petty thieves getting away with crimes that in their country would result in hands chopped off (which would not only prevent them from using their hands to steal again, but would warn would-be thieves from trying to steal, and it would identify convicted thieves to all who saw that they were missing hands.

    If we have a right to go into their country and change it, do they have a right to go into ours and change our laws?
     
  11. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    Many scientists are highly religious. I've known many who were.
     
  12. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    While atheism is a lack of belief, evolution is a belief (well founded with DNA) that life came to be in a certain way.

    Theists often argue that schools should not teach ideas of how life came to be because creationism is often ignored. They argue that if all religions are equal, they should have equal voice in schools.
     
  13. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    None of that changes the fact it is an ideological preference to favour secularism over another system (and that it requires a culturally specific understanding of religion that sees a clear divide between the religious and the secular).

    Are you of the opinion that it is not an ideological preference?
     
  14. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    One of my uncles is a Ph.D. chemist, and also a creationist. How whole career was in the pharmaceutical field. They moved a lot when my cousins and me were young and my mom told me he had a hard time advancing due to his religious beliefs, so he kept changing jobs. He ended up in a management position to end his career.
     
  15. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Well you fail to explain how secularism is an ideology. But what most any theist will agree to is that they don't want some competing religion telling them what the truth is. A secular approach is an excellent way to create order and stability.

    Well it could be a stand a person has IF, for example, they see religion as very harmful to the future of a nation or the planet. Secular as a functional approach is not ideological itself, just a good idea.
     
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  16. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    "secularism can be pretty oppressive for true believers"

    We in India are going to face that soon. The Indian Constitution says that men or women (and LGBTQ) are to be treated equally. The Supreme Court wants to have the same rights for men and women (and LGBTQ). But religions, Islam in particular, has different views. So, there will be agitations and unrest whenever the Parliament comes up with 'Uniform Civil Code'. India is going to have no religion-specific rules as it has at present.
     
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  17. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    An ideological preference is not an ideology, it is a pregerence that is based on one's ideology i.e. It is a subjective value choice.

    Do you view ideology as a negative term? Otherwise why would it not be ideological to prefer one culturally contingent value proposition over another.

    I find it interesting how western secular humanistic types are often so unaware that their ideological preferences are very much the culturally contingent product of a specific environment, rather than being the neutral application of universal reason that they seem to think they are.
     
  18. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    But the point is, noöne forced the Afghans to adopt Western dress or lifestyles. They did this themselves. In fact, it was only after the West became exploitative and heavy-handed that the retreat to the 1400s began.

    So, rather than encouraging proper behavior in men, or expecting men to control themselves, the burden falls on women to hide themselves and restrict their free movement. The sad part is that this hasn't worked. It hasn't reduced sexual assault, it's only swept it under the rug.
    Good points. forcing change on people produces a regressive backlash and resentment. If you want to influence people just move in next door and live your life. If neighbors see an advantage to it, they'll imitate it of their own accord.
     
  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    I said "ideology or doctrine". And no, I'm not seeing that.

    Secularism is not a doctrine. It doesn't come with a bunch of instructions of what kind of laws should be installed or whatever.

    Instead, it's more about how laws and regulations should be motivated (or not).
    It is an acknowledgement of how citizens of a society can and do believe different things in terms of religions and how to make sure every one of them can freely hold to those beliefs without one group imposing their religion on others.

    People, fundamentalist theists in particular, like to say / think that secularism is "anti religious".
    I consider it to be the exact opposite. Secularism is PRO religion as it is the way we have come up with to make sure that everyone gets to follow the religion of their choosing, without having any authorities telling them which religion they can and can't follow.


    In that sense, "secularism" to me is pretty much the same as anti-racism.
    It tries to make sure that people of all faiths are treated equally, just like anti-racism tries to make sure people of all skin colors are treated equally.

    To me, as I understand it, a religious person who opposes secularism is like a racist who opposes humanism.
     
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  20. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    I believe it's the experiential norm. People grow up seeing how things work. Secularism is a sort of default.

    It's interpreting reality according to a particular mythology, trying to organize society around that mythology, even imposing laws based on the myth that's the ideology.
     
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