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Featured Can Science/HumanMind ever prove God/Truth?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by stvdv, Jun 24, 2018.

  1. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    24 jun 2018 stvdv 012 55
    Below is hypothetical: a)God exists + b)God is the source of All and Everything [to keep it simple]
    Can science ever fully understand God, so prove the truth about (non)existence of God
    Can humans ever fully understand God, so prove the truth about (non)existence of God
    Can scripture ever fully understand God, so prove the truth about (non)existence of God

    I thought about this when reading a post of @sandy whitelinger: about "universal coherent message".

    Below I solve it realizing cosmic truth can't be fully grasped by earthly truth:
    [Or put differently: "you need to be Einstein to fully understand Einstein"]
    1: earth: Has "earthly truth/wisdom", which is below the mind
    2: cosmos: Has "cosmic truth/wisdom", which is beyond the mind
    3: God: Has "Divine truth/wisdom", which is called limitless

    So science, being below mind, can't grasp cosmos/God fully, which is beyond mind.
    Humans used to have this ignorant, but very arrogant idea: "Sun goes around the Earth"
    Now we know that Earth, humans and especially me [EGO] is not most important in this Big Universe
    [Realizing this, and being humble, should open up a smart scientist to spiritual wisdom; then the sky is the limit in science IMO]

    Below I look at it from "common sense" and come to the same conclusion as above:
    Human is very small in this vast cosmos. Though human Ego often seems too gigantic to realize this

    Still `some humans` arrogantly claim "I know all about God+religion AND even which is best for you"
    What does this person really declare and why he can't give this up?
    a)ALL sane humans know "human is infinitesimal small in this vast universe"
    b)ALL sane humans know "making such a BIG statement sounds gigantic stupid"

    If you ask them if they ever contemplated the question "Who Am I", they look bewildered, eh, what...?
    Still they are bold enough to even declare (against all common sense) "I know all about God"

    Very simple to prove this can never be true:
    To state "my religion is the only Truth" = I studied all religions in depth and understood all
    To state "I know what (religion/belief) is best for you" = Do I need to explain what this means?
    To state "I know what God wants me to do, to proselytize" = Did you ever ask God personally?

    If someone states "stvdv likes this and that", you better check out with stvdv, don't rely on RF-Bible

    summarized:
    A) HumanMind/science are too limited to prove the unlimited God or cosmic Truth
    B) Common Sense [as shown above] proves also that these claims are not valid

    These were a few thoughts I had today. Maybe others do know all answers already [I'm only 3 month old, in RF timeframe]. If it is true that HumanMind can't prove this stuff then what to talk about next on RF-religious DIRs? Maybe back to the "Kitchen Sink" and cook something new.

    Are there people who still believe HumanMind or Science are able to prove God/CosmicTruth? Or know other ways to prove these?
    [I do believe and experienced that we can have small glimpses of `something special`; but the Full knowledge???]
     
    #1 stvdv, Jun 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
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  2. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Technically, we cannot predict where our sciences will be 100 or 500 years from now. To illustrate, imagine living around 1450. The Ottomans have laid siege to Constantinople. Near the eve of their final attack, you see St. Elmo's fire playing around the dome of St. Sophia's Church.

    Could you have then had any hope of figuring out that you were witnessing a plasma? Nope. Consider how many things had to be understood before plasmas were understood.

    But more to the point, you could not only have never figured it out at the time, but you would have thought anyone who told you what it was, was ignorant, stupid, or insane.

    All your knowledge would have no help to you at all.
     
  3. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    24 jun 2018 stvdv 012 57
    That is true. Science can develop itself. Most important point of this OP was that as long as "science stays below the mind" it will not be able to understand things "that are beyond the mind". So when science opens up more to spirituality and v.v. much more magic is possible IMO.
     
    #3 stvdv, Jun 24, 2018
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  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    Technically, yeah. We can prove "truth/god exists". The problem is people want proof over god flying in the air, people walking on water, a woman with fifty arms, Zues with fire coming from him, or a red dude with a pitch fork.

    They don't want to

    1. Study each country's culture in relation to their religion(s). Studying culture and behind the scenes of pitch forks and magic lightening bolts at the heart of the human desire and psychological needs will give a glimpse of what We call god. (Force; Essence; Love; Truth; energy; Ha Shem; and so forth)

    2. Read sacred texts and get an idea of the history and culture behind belief / systems. Did god actually kill the Isrealite. People say they did; but, do you believe it in relationship with reality and what we know of the world today?

    3. Listen to what the religious have to say. No one debates Hindus god; they are monotheist too, ya know. No one asks a Pagan what they believe and no Pagan I know ever want to answer the question more than externally. But if you guys really took a deeper look at gods compared to those who believe it, the source is in the person. But you have to look behind what they say, the context, to know it.

    Ever wonder why people can't say exactly what god is? A adjective doesn't cut it. Pronouns don't when you don't have a noun. Essence isn't a good descriptor. Nor is force.

    3. Take psychology, sociology, theology, archeology, and so forth. Put the pieces together yourselves. JW believe jesus is not god. Catholics believe he is. What's behind this, really? Are they really talking about god as a being some sort who likes to inhabit (or not inhabit) people and tell them in their ear to sacrifice themselves? got to read into it deeper.

    Science can prove god/truth. Another problem is, yall think god is somehow objective. So, its like trying to say it doesnt make sense for a person to eat soup with a fork. When believers keep telling you its a spoon-you dont have to see it; go off their justification. Its subjective.

    Gets kinda irritating seeing the emperor with no clothes on.
     
  5. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    There's absolutely no way to get around the fact that creationist ID proponents need, in fact require, empirical proof.

    That's the bottom line.
     
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  6. Paradox22

    Paradox22 I'm only Hume ian

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    Can science prove or disprove anything about God or truth or anything else for that matter? That depends on two things. (1) whether something is true and (2) what is an acceptable standard of proof. Science can provide evidence for or against something. However, whether you take such evidence to be "proof" depends entirely on how you set the standard. Read Descartes' Meditations and tell me if there is any way for anyone to have absolute "proof" or even certainty, about anything. No matter what evidence or logical argument someone provides, you could still say that that is not sufficient proof. So the question is, what would you accept as sufficient "proof" for or against the existence of God?


    Cannot agree with that.

    (1) Why does someone have to study every religion to be able to say their own religion is true? If a person has sufficient reason to be certain their religion is true, it necessarily follows that any religion that contradicts that is false. There is no need to learn everything there is to know about every religion there ever was.
    (2) If a person knows that their religion is true, it is entirely reasonable for her to say that she knows what religion is best for you. Moreover, she would be right, if her religion is true.
    (3) There is no reason why a person needs to talk to God in order for that person to come to the conclusion that the morally "right" thing to do would be to try to persuade others to have the same beliefs. That is a reasonable conclusion if the religion says that God cares whether people believe in God or not.

    Your arguments make the most sense if you assume atheism. If you are going to do that, you should make that clear. Then I would enjoy reading how you provide proof of that view. Who knows? We all might learn something.
     
    #6 Paradox22, Jun 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  7. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    I'm not going to read this. Take away the fluffy colors and simplify the message if you want me to read it.
     
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  8. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    25 jun 2018 stvdv 012 58
    I do not want proof of these. I can easily except these [walking on water etc] as being possible. No biggy to me.
    I rather am intrigued how this vast universe started. What was behind the Big Bang. This mystery that IMHO never can be solved by human mind.
    [I have a quite big imagination ... walking on water, flying in the air ... but solving this God-issue is of a total different level, far beyond my imagination]

    I think the first problem is to realize we can't even get a straight definition of God. So to prove something that still needs to be defined is like eating soup with a fork.
    I won't state "science can prove God/Truth". More likely not. Because it's kind of "empirical proven" to be `not provable` the past 20.000 years
     
    #8 stvdv, Jun 24, 2018
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  9. james blunt

    james blunt Well-Known Member

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    To seek wisdom is to seek knowledge
    To seek God is too seek knowing
    Knowing is knowledge
    Knowing God is knowing no-thing
    knowing science
    The universe began by no-thing
    In the beginning there was no-thing
    But there was space
    Which is nothing.
     
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  10. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    25 jun 2018 stvdv 012 59
    I did mention your name in the OP. Not that I had in mind that you should read it. It was more a thank you note [your post gave me these ideas]
    I colored it, just to make it more readable which parts were linked. I am not going to take them out.

    I can simplify it for you though. The below is at least shorter, and I hope it contains sufficient information:

    As long as Science works "below the mind" it will never be able to proof God/CosmicTruth which are "beyond the mind"
    When science realizes this and becomes humble and thereby open to accept spirituality there might be a chance IMHO
     
    #10 stvdv, Jun 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  11. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Agreed
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    My thing is you (all) talk about god as if it already exists in the first place but you can't define him. That I'm always at a lost. No one has explained why people do that both atheist and believer.

    But the Big Bang, I just see it as pure science. It's amazing and interesting but associating it with any nature of God, I don't do. But my question is how did you get "truth" from God and relationship with it and the universe big bang?
     
  13. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    25 jun 2018 stvdv 012 62
    Oh that is quite simple. When I see this vast universe which perfectly keeps on rolling. While I hardly get my own body rolling. I know there is something so much bigger than I. That I just call God. I have totally no "picture" with it. Can be anything. I do not know, and to tell you the truth, I have not even given it a thought in all these years. The second I "think about starting to think about it" I already stop the thought. That is just so far beyond my comprehension. I do enjoy to surrender to this mysterious ??? No need/desire to know, nor to understand. Maybe because I realize it's beyond my understanding.

    As in my OP "earthly truth can not possibly understand cosmic truth or beyond [Divine Truth]". I just use the word God, just surrender:
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.​

    I have experienced. Since then I have no questions to solve anymore. I just enjoy the mystery and be happy with the above mentioned "serenity"
     
    #13 stvdv, Jun 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    I know that everyone has their means of appreciating life. As something greater, to explain it that way, for me isn't quite accurate. For example, when I wrote a poem it's a part of me; my soul and spirit.

    Mind you, I use paper and pen and my noggin, but even then, is it greater? Not really. Unexplained. No. That's why we have creativity, to "explain god". It's, nature, etc, are extensions of myself, my family, and how I see things and want to see things. Some would call it god. Some type of source. I get it psychologically why people want a source but spiritually, I don't. My experience says we are one with everything. It's like looking at my own reflection when I "do art".

    If I can't explain nor express it, I'm jailed. Probably why I love to ask others how and why they think as they do when it comes to something greater because we aren't separate from life. There isn't anything above us. We are interconnected. Once you make a god somewhere up in there, the universe (stars, planets, earth, living) it looses its place in the middle of things.

    I love that poem, serenity prayer. Footprints is a good one too.
     
  15. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    25 jun 2018 stvdv 012 65
    Good that I am not a creationist
    Good that I am not a proponent

    Because I believe that science [without spirituality] will never be able to proof whether or not God exists.
    Science works below the mind, so will never be able to proof that which is beyond the mind [God and stuff]

    I do believe in empirical proof though. But this is only useful for things from this world
    Totally useless for things above the mind/senses. Which is quite obvious IMO.
     
    #15 stvdv, Jun 24, 2018
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  16. Cacotopia

    Cacotopia Let's go full Trottle

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    I don't think it is important to focus efforts on beyond the material world when there are enough problems to solve in reality.

    I think once we get a handle on the earthly problems we can focus on spiritual concerns. Sure they need to be discussed but I don't rate them all that high on the priority list.
     
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  17. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    25 jun 2018 stvdv 012 66
    Nobody can prove whether God exists or not.
    Some use "God" to explain the unexplainable
    Others use "not God" to explain the unexplainable
    Both are just believes. So in that way equally valid

    I will not claim one is more valid than the other
    Because I only believe, I can not prove anything

    Science tells us that "because of the Sun we have life on Earth"
    My common sense tells me "because of Xxx we have Universe"

    Can't prove it. We just have to sit this one out, I guess

    I love Footprints also
     
    #17 stvdv, Jun 24, 2018
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  18. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    25 jun 2018 stvdv 012 67
    Thanks, good points
    The scriptures declare that once you are enlightened all material world problems are "gone"
    So I do believe spiritual efforts should be high on my priority list
    but like you said, I also believe it is good, while not enlightened, to get your material world in order
    And I also believe we need not focus on "beyond the material world"
    [Maybe that is why I never tried to solve the riddle: does God exist or not]

    note: I see enlightenment as "detached from worldly attachments"
     
    #18 stvdv, Jun 24, 2018
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  19. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    It really is a science issue with them. You nailed the problem. The only thing valid to them isn't even science perse it's reductionism specifically. The problem with reductio ism it works great in context to strength of concrete, tape measures, manufacturing etc but as reality itself!? Ha.
     
  20. Cacotopia

    Cacotopia Let's go full Trottle

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    Except we are attached to the world, the "material plane" you got eat you gotta be clean, try to be, gotta live. While you don't need a great many things this world has to offer, you still have needs, wants not necessary, needs necessary. And you aren't alone. Or I guess you could be, you could focus on just you but I think the material world is a group effort so to speak.
     
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