Can science disprove the existence of God?

[MrMrdevincamus]

An interesting article about the KCA. http://infidels.org/library/modern/dan_barker/kalamity.html

Believe it or not but I knew Dan before he wrote that article, the original was a thesis for his masters. He and I went round and round while he was a student at Berkeley. I usually won. We were good friends even though he was a god hating atheist. However as time and many debates passed, his superior education and I suppose intellect (he claims to be a mensa dude and I believe him) made it easy for him to defeat my defenses. However I turned him on to William Craig who lives breathes and lives the KCA. He is a famous christian apologist no I dont know him personally but have talked to him via e mail over the years. William Lane Craig is Research Professor of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology in La Mirada, California and debates the KCA tirelessly. He debated the famous brilliant atheist Anthony Flew and most say won that and several other debates. Dan and I lost touch but I see his name on infidels page every so often.The last email I had with Dan he said Craig had pretty much hamstrung him on a technicality lol.

But to answer your question Yes I have read the article and its very good. Its been a long time. Do you think Dan's article defeats the KCA? Let me know what part you feel is weak and I will rebut or debate or pass.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

This has nothing to do with physical appearance and everything to do with the nature of the questions of and claims about God(s).

There is often a challenge that one cannot prove that a thing which doesn't exist, doesn't exist.
It's an idiotic line of reasoning, as there necessarily can be no evidence for a thing that doesn't exist.

So, like claims about God, Science cannot "prove" that god does not exist.
Similarly, however, science cannot "prove" that the FSM does not exist - for the same reasons...

I know I said as much that means science can not prove an immaterial objects exists even if it does exist and even if the objects things etc are RELIGIOUS OR OTHERWISE. Again, I am speaking about God and things in nature that we found to really exist, but it took decades sometimes to prove it. Some things science say exists still haven't been proved to exist, get it now? I even pointed out the double standard because science has different standards for religious claims and their own claims without enough evidence to prove as ture!!!! a page or so back. Also I was just returning a favor (an insult), but what I said was actually true! So they got a free education too! I mentioned it so they wouldn't make another embarrassing mistake thinking they were insulting Christians by bringing up the FSM revealing their own ignorance. That said you are again wrong eventually science may be able to prove exists because he does really exist. The FSM does not and was created as an insult. God has uncountable evidences to support his existence the FSM has zero. Get it now?

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[ArtieE]

But to answer your question Yes I have read the article and its very good. Its been a long time. Do you think Dan's article defeats the KCA? Let me know what part you feel is weak and I will rebut or debate or pass.

The whole article speaks for itself. Unless you can find something illogical or irrational in his reasoning I consider the KCA defeated...

 

[ArtieE]

God has uncountable evidences to support his existence the FSM has zero. Get it now?.

What would Christians do if science actually managed to come up with some apparatus like in the Ghostbusters movies and trap him and we put him on trial for genocide and countless crimes against humanity?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Neither, I may as well blame Santa Clause

You said...."God has a pretty bad track record for murder..." ...this implies you believe God exists?

 

[Altfish]

You said...."God has a pretty bad track record for murder..." ...this implies you believe God exists?

No, it means I have read the Bible

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, it means I have read the Bible

That much is obvious....but do you believe these murders actually took place?

 

[Altfish]

That much is obvious....but do you believe these murders actually took place?

No, I don't believe they took place because it is just a story book written by man.

BUT I thought Christians believed the Bible was the true word of God. Are you saying it isn't?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, I don't believe they took place because it is just a story book written by man.

BUT I thought Christians believed the Bible was the true word of God. Are you saying it isn't?

The bible is so full of allegory, metaphor, simile, parable, figure of speech, myth, etc., that it is not just a simple matter of it being either true or false..though some do see it that way.. The serious student though will try to understand what it means.in the context of their own life and destiny....that is my approach. What other people believe is just where they are at....be they theist or atheist

 

[jonathan180iq]

I'm going to take this line by line.

Again, I am speaking about God and things in nature that we found to really exist, but it took decades sometimes to prove it. Some things science say exists still haven't been proved to exist, get it now?

Give me some examples. Append some citations here, please.

I even pointed out the double standard because science has different standards for religious claims and their own claims without enough evidence to prove as ture!!!!

Again, citations please.

Also I was just returning a favor (an insult), but what I said was actually true! So they got a free education too! I mentioned it so they wouldn't make another embarrassing mistake thinking they were insulting Christians by bringing up the FSM revealing their own ignorance.

The FSM is not an insult to Christians - it's satire and a challenge to most all dogmatic theistic claims.

Your next quote will highlight this.

That said you are again wrong eventually science may be able to prove exists because he does really exist.

You are claiming that your god "does really exist", even though you don't have evidence for it. That's very different from talking about scientific theory, or substantial documentation of a concept which leads to certain hypotheses.

If you have evidence for god and it's as abundant as you are insinuating, then please cite it here. End the debate forever by showing us your proofs of god. If they are substantial, then this god should be obvious, correct?

I would warn you, however, that you need to provide evidence of your particular god, not just logical arguments for the possible existence of a god-concept. Yahweh and Zeus are two very different beings, for example. Allah and Shiva are not the same thing.

The FSM does not and was created as an insult.

Incorrect. It's a philosophical challenge to your position. If you are offended by that, maybe you should consider why.

God has uncountable evidences to support his existence the FSM has zero. Get it now?

Again, please just cite them. Show us the evidences for God that can't be equally applied to the FSM.

 

[whirlingmerc]

No. Science deals with things in a fairly narrow box. God is outside time, space and this universe.... so ultimately no.
One might make logical arguments about world views as per consistency showing is they blow up on themselves, kinda like a demolition derby where the last view standing wins. Not sure that's science... usually referred to as presuppositional apologetics.

 

[ArtieE]

No. Science deals with things in a fairly narrow box. God is outside time, space and this universe....

What about the Bible then? If God is outside time and space and the universe who or what is the Bible talking about when it refers to God said and did this and that?

 

[whirlingmerc]

God can enter time and space, but time and space is part of the creation

In Christ God took on a human nature and so was welded together, so to speak a human nature but sinless and unfallen with a divine nature

 

[ArtieE]

God can enter time and space, but time and space is part of the creation

But that is logically impossible if something was created there would have to be a time when it hadn't been created yet but according to you time hadn't been created yet...

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

What would Christians do if science actually managed to come up with some apparatus like in the Ghostbusters movies and trap him and we put him on trial for genocide and countless crimes against humanity?

God is a vengeful but just God. In any case I would guess mass suicide would be a far greater problem than what you envision (whatever that is)......The mass suicide would be caused when those that blamed God and Jesus when it was the father of all lies that caused the evil that has dogged mankind since the original sin.

The whole article speaks for itself. Unless you can find something illogical or irrational in his reasoning I consider the KCA defeated...

The Taylor argument has been trashed Go here;

With respect to empirical confirmation of the universe's beginning Taylor is forced into an anti-realist position on the Big Bang theory, but without sufficient warrant for singling out that theory as non-realistic. Therefore, despite the virtue of simplicity of form, the kalam cosmological argument has not been defeated by Taylor's all too swift refutation.

"A Swift and Simple Refutation of the Kalam Cosmological Argument?" Religious Studies 35 (1999): 57-72.


Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/a-sw...the-kalam-cosmological-argument#ixzz4MnGOxtqS

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

But that is logically impossible if something was created there would have to be a time when it hadn't been created yet but according to you time hadn't been created yet...

Your ideas of time are confused. There are several kinds of time such as intuitive time, or the arrow of time. Then there is space time . In physics scientists use an upper case (T) to reference intuitive time, the kind of time that seems to flow, and when doing calculations ete an lower case (t) is used to denote to indicate the fabric of the universe ie space time.

 

[ArtieE]

The Taylor argument has been trashed

Who's Taylor? The article I referred to was by Dan Barker...

 

[ArtieE]

Your ideas of time are confused. There are several kinds of time such as intuitive time, or the arrow of time. Then there is space time . In physics scientists use an upper case (T) to reference intuitive time, the kind of time that seems to flow, and when doing calculations ete an lower case (t) is used to denote to indicate the fabric of the universe ie space time.

And what does this have to do with my comment? If God hadn't created time yet how could there be a time where he hadn't yet created the universe? And if there was no such time, what then?

Imagine God saying: "In 60 seconds I'll create a universe." How could he say that if he hadn't created time yet? And if time didn't exist how could there first be no universe and then a universe?

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

And what does this have to do with my comment? If God hadn't created time yet how could there be a time where he hadn't yet created the universe? And if there was no such time, what then?

Imagine God saying: "In 60 seconds I'll create a universe." How could he say that if he hadn't created time yet? And if time didn't exist how could there first be no universe and then a universe?

I will answer this question then make a comment. You are asking a question that was pondered by Islamic philosophers a thousand years ago. As I said God is outside and outside the universe, but is casually connected to our four dimensional universe by various methods, one is by sentient beings. With all due respect I do not think you under infinity and temporarily as it applies to our discussion. I think you are really asking or will ask before this is finished can there be causality without time. There needn't be time to produce an action. Yes it is counter intuitive but God doesn't or did not need time to cause things to happen. I can offer some good reading on causality and how time is not required for the manipulation of 'objects' but you must remember we are speculating about 'before' the big bang and what happens in a realm or atemporal dimension. IMO time was created in the big bang just like every other non supernatural thing. The big bang was designed by God to produce a universe that would evolve sentient beings and so far so good.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Who's Taylor? The article I referred to was by Dan Barker...

Sorry, that was my bad. I was responding to another post by another member that referenced Taylor. Sometimes when cutting and pasting strange things happen....